[Idea/Suggestion] Improve the skills or traits.

[Adrian74]

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---------- Few Intro --------

Good day everyone. This is an idea I thought time ago when I received the following reply:

They can simply add the Merit point system FFXI. Once you hit 50, u can level after that, where your exp will go into a different calculation where u get points to put into VIT, STR, or Incraese Shield bash during etc etc...

In this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Idea%29/page2

But, we are not here for discuss that idea, this is one apart and I want to focus it in the idea of the skills and traits...In my opinion, how the skills and traits are right now is a waste of design and ideas, many ideas!...

The game right now lacks a lot of the customization that it should have, I guess that once the people reaches Ilvl90 there are not really differences between one character or another, not choices, nothing...

And this could give not only more customization, and choices to the characters but also more hours-days of gaming, a new search for customizate and improve your character aside of that classical 'get more gear' one that we have right now.

------------- The Idea ------------------

The idea I speak about is let the players be able to improve their skills by choosing what field they improve, or which skill

--- And how could this be, what could be improved there? ---

Well, almost everything could be improved for the skills, because in the end, they are just numbers after all. We could increase the damage they do, the duration of the effects they make or side effects, the range for use the skill or range of action of the skill, the MP or TP cost, the recast timer...

--- Why such a thing is important for customization of characters? What good things give to the game? ---

Actually, this gives the game a big variety of players with different game styles, different combos and 'rotations' different focus on the game or even roles, different strategies.... And as said before, it could maintain the players busy, searching for improving their skills and think how to improve them, and even 'reactivate the economy' (explained in the "how")

--- Ok, we get it, but exactly how should players achieve to upgrade their skills? ---

Note: the following example is just a how could be, it could be changed, wouldn't necessarily need to be like that, is only for giving an idea.

Here comes only one idea, the how could be made however Square Enix considers it would be better or fit... But here comes my nooby sand pixel to that how. You could create a drop in the game, that could be given regardless of the character level when completing FATEs or killing some monsters in the land, a normal general drop. This item-book-thingy-whatever would have the name of one skill, example: "Stone of Flash" so only someone with a gladiator character would want to use that item for acquire a skill point for flash. This way the economy would reactivate a little with the markets, people selling skill stones-books-items-whatever of the skills they are not interested in raise, just for buying the ones they need, or also wanting to interchange items from one skill to another.

With the skill points you gain thanks to the item you could decide to improve a certain thing of your skill, (You could be able to select a skill. For example using two points increasing the area effect, or one point with a slight decrease of the recast, etc. Up to for example 50 points of skill points, and of course not everyone would use their points in the same things and skills...

IT could also be that you have overall the option to only have 150 max points for skills, allowing you only to have 3 skills at 50... Or choose for example 4-5 skills and only increase to all the skills a certain area (Range, for example)...

Combinations are endless...

--- Why am I suggesting this? ---

Time ago I played a game for certain time that had a lot, a looot of players and during a lot of time. That game was nothing compared to FFXIV: ARR... To not say ugly words let's say that it was a **** and you understand me. It was a pay to win, for starter.. The battle system was pathetic and well, overall it was... But it had three things to make the players stay longer... Level up the character (The cap was really difficult to reach) Take items and upgrade them, and personalize and upgrade the skills.) Those three tasks could take like around 7 months for a hardcore player, or more...And ARR doesn't need any of those because how it is in that fact is perfect, but it needs also to have a good personalization with the skills and allow the characters a little more to decide if they should be spending time in obtaining gear-leveling up... Or upgrading skills, or whatever, and how to do it.

Also, I doubt it would be so difficult at all for Square Enix to do such a thing, they already made more complicated things in some patches.

--- Final Notes ---

Thanks everyone for reading this. As I said, this is only an idea, and pieces of how to do it, everything could be changed. For example make it so you obtain items in the drop and then craft them for obtain special stones for the skills... Or make it so it doesn't have a certain skill name, even if in that case it would be easier and players wouldn't trade at all, make it so the items just give you some general customization skill points you decide in which skill use it and for what field of the skill. Or just add more traits we acquire or accumulate in stacks, if you see the traits we have are for upgrading the skills. Allow us to decide which traits we should get and even accumulate them. (Ex: I have 5 trait points. I choose a trait called "Quick Raging Strikes" that reduces by 10 second the recast of that skill. The cost 1. So I buy the max of it, 5 stacks, having a recast reduced of 50. While maybe other people choosed to have 5 stacks of the trait "Longer Raging Strikes" each giving you 5 more seconds of duration... Etc etc, the options are too much)

I just hope to see an answer of the dev team, because I think this thread deserves their attention, and in my honest opinion FFXIV deserves to have a nice system like this.

I'm Spaniard, English it's not so easy for me and I know there are errors in my writing, but, at least, I hope you people could understand the main idea of this.

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I'll be replying here some of the most important points, since because of the daily cap can't do it with new posts.

The problem with this kind of system is that a longtime player gains a massive advantage over a newer player of the same level.
Example.
Player A plays since launch day. Gets first 50 Job and sticks with it for 1 year, gaining all the Merit/Bonus levels whatever you call it.
Player B Starts 9 months after launch, gets first 50 in 2 months playing every now and again, catches up to Player A's gear but does not have any of the Merit bonuses.

Player A will hold a significant advantage over the newer player, an advantage that would lead to parties and even FCs placing Merit restrictions on recruits.
That sort of advantage would be impossible for Player B to catch up to, nor even make up for with personal skill.
It gets especially ugly for PvP as well, should both players be interested in it.

Here is only a small idea for customization, to be more than only the gear at endgame after all, maybe not grinding or maybe yes, I don't care much but... Let's be realistic a little about it... I know Yoshida-san already stated that he doesn't like much the differences in a MMORPG between a player that can play a lot and a player that can't... (Personally, I can only play in weekends, my time between the week is a joke)...

You can't really pretend to fight that in a MMORPG because it is the pure essence of the MMORPGs, if you really pretend to smash the content like that, at the endgame everything will be so monotone as some people say, thus, they leave and all those things. You can't pretend to 'correct' that some people has more time than others for playing.... As for correct the time some people started there's only one effective way I know... Make new servers every three months, and don't allow people from other servers to trespass their char there. So, everyone would start a server at the same time with the same priviledges and the same conditions, at least in the joining time, everything will be like new.. And is a good felling, have to say, I experienced in another game starting four new servers, and whenever there was announced a new one, there I went.

But, still, regardless of that, It doesn't necessarily has to be like you say. It could still fitting Yoshida-san's idea, adding one of the famous caps. Just like the caps with the gear, you could do a cap for weekly obtain skill points or items for improve your skills... (Still, the idea of the caps in my opinion is wrong, you have the same problem, players that started before me have advantage over me because they already have better gear I'll need weeks or more to obtain... So.... Really are we dropping a good idea just because 'would make distinction between chars that play more or less'?

it was that way in FF XI and i never once saw a complaint

I'm glad to know about it!... I hope they think about doing something similar here!

That's really the best response you can come up with? Have you looked at the party finder lately? Can you imagine the immense clusterfuck the thing would be if another layer of vertical progression as OP suggests were added?

"i120+ PROs only must have cleared must show proof MUST HAVE ENHANCED SPIRITS WITHIN OR KICK no bads"

My shorter way to reply this is "It would be the players' fault, not game's." Because that's what's it. We can't really be dropping all the ideas just because we can imagine SOME people really asking for fancy requirements like that for their party.

So you fear more words, and words typed in capital letters? I'm just saying I would like to see a way to advance my character past the gear treadmill, something that rewards you for the time you spent on that character/job, I just think their reason for not doing it, upsetting people that don't even play the game right now is BS.

Totally agree with you, as I replied above, it is simply (with all respect) stupid to take care about what requirement some people would put in a party.... If I would be the one about to joina party that says to me "YOu need to have at least a 3s Silence duration with your bard" I'd probably just ignore them and search for another or make my own...And everything

I'm all for revamping the skill system, the one we have seems so lazy. Cross class skills aren't a reason to not make a detailed system.

This is a Final Fantasy game with the most bland skill system ever, sound weird to you? So many interesting things can be done to make skill progression actually exist instead of getting the exact same abilities/traits as any other played using the same class/job as you. It's boring and it really needs to change.

That's more or less the idea, sir! The method, grinding or not, doesn't matter. Skills can be upgraded, can become fun, different for each other, a choice, a selection of our preference... Not something static like it is right now.

[Sylve]

The problem with this kind of system is that a longtime player gains a massive advantage over a newer player of the same level.
Example.
Player A plays since launch day. Gets first 50 Job and sticks with it for 1 year, gaining all the Merit/Bonus levels whatever you call it.
Player B Starts 9 months after launch, gets first 50 in 2 months playing every now and again, catches up to Player A's gear but does not have any of the Merit bonuses.

Player A will hold a significant advantage over the newer player, an advantage that would lead to parties and even FCs placing Merit restrictions on recruits.
That sort of advantage would be impossible for Player B to catch up to, nor even make up for with personal skill.
It gets especially ugly for PvP as well, should both players be interested in it.

Don't get me wrong though, options for non gear progression are welcome. But that sort of grindy long term investment in a single Job not only gives an advantage to older players but also reduces incentive to play multiple Jobs, since you not only have to get to 50 on your next Job, gear it to whatever is endgame content at the time, and THEN grind out all the Merit levels to be able to use it effectively in that content.
Which brings another issue. Is content then balanced around the expectation that all players present will have certain Merit bonuses? If so, you further limit newer players from getting into Endgame, and if not, older players then have a significant edge over newer players in that same content as it is made easier by virtue of playtime invested and nothing else. Which is plain wrong.

[Mcshiggs]

Yoshi kind of touched on this a bit, he has said he is reluctant to make characters more powerful based on time played, aside from basic leveling. He said that a certain group, those that don't even play the game, won't think it is fair if they start 3 months from now, and us that have payed and supported this game will have more powerful level 50's then the new level 50's, basically he looks at it as not rewarding long term players, bur instead punishing new players to the game. I think it is an ass backwards way to look at things personally, but I doubt we will ever get much of an answer because in the same interview they joked about players thinking "they know best" and that they have their reasons why they do the things they do, and many of those reasons can't be shared with the players.

[KyroeFelix]

Here comes only one idea, the how could be made however Square Enix considers it would be better or fit... But here comes my nooby sand pixel to that how. You could create a drop in the game, that could be given regardless of the character level when completing FATEs or killing some monsters in the land, a normal general drop. This item-book-thingy-whatever would have the name of one skill, example: "Stone of Flash" so only someone with a gladiator character would want to use that item for acquire a skill point for flash. This way the economy would reactivate a little with the markets, people selling skill stones-books-items-whatever of the skills they are not interested in raise, just for buying the ones they need, or also wanting to interchange items from one skill to another.

My only problem with this plan is that it won't stimulate the economy very much. Players will min/max which skills are actually useful, like they've done with materia, and the boards will be flooded with the skills people actually want. The price will then drop as players begin the undercutting process they've done with everything else.

In my opinion, customization is a dream in MMOs and only truly realized in a single player RPG like Dragon Age. It would be nice for everyone to play how they want, and in theory they can. But the community will form an idea of what is best and those who don't conform will be called a noob, trash, etc. This will inevitably lead to arguing about who is/isn't playing their job correctly. PF ads will call for "X skill tree only" and exclude players.

[Tupsi]

The problem with this kind of system is that a longtime player gains a massive advantage over a newer player of the same level.
Example.
Player A plays since launch day. Gets first 50 Job and sticks with it for 1 year, gaining all the Merit/Bonus levels whatever you call it.
Player B Starts 9 months after launch, gets first 50 in 2 months playing every now and again, catches up to Player A's gear but does not have any of the Merit bonuses.

This is how MMORPGs work. They can't balance a game with hopes of said player B joining a year or two later and expect it to survive like that. People who play from launch will almost ALWAYS have a huge advantage. Guess what Sylve? You have a huge advantage over my cousin if she joins now.

See? "advantages" doesn't matter because if you choose to join an MMO later in it's life you have to expect to play catch up. No worries though, Yoshi doesn't want any depth in this game so it lets everyone be "even" forever.

[Zoeila]

it was that way in FF XI and i never once saw a complaint

[Gamemako]

I think it is an ass backwards way to look at things personally

That's really the best response you can come up with? Have you looked at the party finder lately? Can you imagine the immense clusterfuck the thing would be if another layer of vertical progression as OP suggests were added?

"i120+ PROs only must have cleared must show proof MUST HAVE ENHANCED SPIRITS WITHIN OR KICK no bads"

[Sylve]

This is how MMORPGs work. They can't balance a game with hopes of said player B joining a year or two later and expect it to survive like that. People who play from launch will almost ALWAYS have a huge advantage. Guess what Sylve? You have a huge advantage over my cousin if she joins now.

See? "advantages" doesn't matter because if you choose to join an MMO later in it's life you have to expect to play catch up. No worries though, Yoshi doesn't want any depth in this game so it lets everyone be "even" forever.

I'll have only the advantage of personal skill, developed over my playtime. Your cousin would have identical stats to mine, and thus exactly the same encounter potential. With the OPs suggestion your cousin would never ever be able to keep up with me, even in identical gear.

[Mcshiggs]

That's really the best response you can come up with? Have you looked at the party finder lately? Can you imagine the immense clusterfuck the thing would be if another layer of vertical progression as OP suggests were added?

"i120+ PROs only must have cleared must show proof MUST HAVE ENHANCED SPIRITS WITHIN OR KICK no bads"

So you fear more words, and words typed in capital letters? I'm just saying I would like to see a way to advance my character past the gear treadmill, something that rewards you for the time you spent on that character/job, I just think their reason for not doing it, upsetting people that don't even play the game right now is BS.

[Sylve]

So you fear more words, and words typed in capital letters? I'm just saying I would like to see a way to advance my character past the gear treadmill, something that rewards you for the time you spent on that character/job, I just think their reason for not doing it, upsetting people that don't even play the game right now is BS.

I agree that we need some sideways progression. It just needs to not be in the form of straight up player power per hour spent grinding mobs in a little corner of the world.

There are other ways to do it, alternate stats to vary the playstyles within a Job. For example, I might like to go for Skill Speed and Crit gear on my Monk, since i like hitting fast and sharp. Perhaps someone else would prefer Determination and Accuracy, favoring massive slower hits that always connect.

Maybe even a modification to the Materia system to apply added effects to Skills and Traits.

No grinding needed, and you don't skew the power an old level 50 to a fresh 50.

Have a look in your local Party Finder for a BCB group that will take you at ilvl70, which is the same ilvl the world firsts of the early turns were done. Hell, i have trouble finding PF groups that accept my i77 Monk into Titan HM runs. It'd only get worse with another layer of progression based on time spent grinding.