GLA <25 and keeping enmity

[Sadana]

'Til then, Flash and Riot Blade are your friend.

On one of the other multi-page guides to tanking threads, I read that the enmity gained from Flash isn't that much compared to other skills. Is this the case or no?

[SpookyGhost]

On one of the other multi-page guides to tanking threads, I read that the enmity gained from Flash isn't that much compared to other skills. Is this the case or no?

It's not as good as OP/SC but it's all you've really got for AOE aggro. But, bare in mind, as long as no one is actually AOEing you'll only need 2-3 Flashes to keep aggro off the healer. If a single DPS is pulling aggro off you it's either because they outgear you or because they're blowing CDs. FB -> SB is your optimal single target aggro combo and if someone pulls that target off you and you're spamming that then there's not a lot you can do. Thankfully most enemies hit like paper before 40-ish so you can just let them tank what they steal. Things are always rocky at the start but they even out the more abilities you get - especially when you get RoH, that solves a lotttttt of problems.

[Ooshima]

On one of the other multi-page guides to tanking threads, I read that the enmity gained from Flash isn't that much compared to other skills. Is this the case or no?

Yes, but it does help you to hold group head early. I have both GLA and MRD past 25 and holding hate doesn't seem to be a problem for me. Yeah at times one odd mob just goes to the healer, I think it's because it took too long to kill the mob. But even so, one hit of the SB or even a shield lob should get it back. If you need to shield lob or hit a few times to grab it back, it meant that you're holding hate a little too loose.

Mark your targets before you engage, open with FoF if avail. Shield lob, flash 3 times for a start since you had issue. FB=>SB combo it 2 times and see if it's dying (really, low level mobs dies very fast, especially if you have level synced DPS). If the mob is left with say 30% HP, don't bother with it anymore. Move to targert #2, FB=>Riot Blade it to recover MP. Once target 1 is dead and your DPS move over to target 2, throw in a FB=>SB combo if mob is dying or 2 FB=SB if still have significant HP left. Again, once it's on low HP, leave it to your DPS to kill, move on to target #3 (usually the last mob for typical pulls) with FB=>RB if you still need to recover MP.

Typically healers shouldn't even pull aggro off any mobs in this way at all, unless either the pack took too long to kill (something wrong with DPS?) and resulted in healer generating too much aggro with healing you, or your DPS doesn't dodge shit and resulted in healers generating too much aggro again. As a tank, play by ear. Took too long to kill and DPS eating shit dmg? Check the emity bar of your current mob and next mob. If you hold significant aggro (ie #2 aggro holder still far to overtake), you should throw a FB=SB combo on the next mob to hold hate.

[Wadoka]

Y'know, I've heard this before... Has anyone ever held an "Enmity-off" between a GLA/PLD and MRD/WAR? Same level, same gear, same level weapon, maybe no soul stone

MRD wins. WAR wins. No contest.

Anecdotally, this isn't always true. I would offer the example of the FATE "Roc and a Hard Place" in Coerthas. I ran that fate one time as a Paladin, with a Warrior FATE-mate. The WAR established aggro on the ROC but over the next 3 minutes (yes it took that long) we had a "Hate Race" and I caught up and stole the aggro from the WAR, using Flash only when the diminishing-returns reset, and using basic RoH combos (no Provoke).

I don't know if we were equal iLevel at the time. We were equal Level-level

***

As has been said, you'll want to add "Flight or Fight to your opening rotation, before Shield Lob. And pop it every time it comes off cooldown.

***

As far as "Show Some Leg" - you know that only works against heterosexual/bisexual male and homosexual/bisexual female *humanoids*, right? Useless otherwise

[Ultimatecalibur]

Popping Fight or Flight right before you use Shield Lob to pull is a waste of at least a few seconds of increased damage/enmity. Especially if you are going to follow things up with Flash spam to anchor the rest of the pull.

Popping Fight or Fight before Fast Blade or before Savage Blade has no difference in enmity generation. You will get 4 Fast > Savage cycles while under the buff either way. Same with the full RoH combo and the 30s version at 28+. Only during levels 26 and 27 is there any real advantage to popping FoF before Savage Blade over any other part of the combo due to 20s only covering 2.66 uses of the full combo.

When spamming Flash at the start of a fight with multiple monster you want to use it until you are down to about 1/2 MP. This should be about 3 or 4 uses and allow you to recover to full MP before you go to the next group without having any reason to stop and rest to recover MP.

[Bardo]

Popping Fight or Fight before Fast Blade or before Savage Blade has no difference in enmity generation. You will get 4 Fast > Savage cycles while under the buff either way. Same with the full RoH combo and the 30s version at 28+. Only during levels 26 and 27 is there any real advantage to popping FoF before Savage Blade over any other part of the combo due to 20s only covering 2.66 uses of the full combo.

Well, that's only true if you do nothing but Fastblade>Savageblade after popping it though right? If you throw 1 flash in there somewhere, you would come out ahead waiting to pop right before a Savage.

So I guess I should have worded it differently. Something like:
Popping FoF right before your highest enmity skill in your combo CAN result in more total enmity bonus from FoF. But it should never result in less.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Well, that's only true if you do nothing but Fastblade>Savageblade after popping it though right? If you throw 1 flash in there somewhere, you would come out ahead waiting to pop right before a Savage.

So I guess I should have worded it differently. Something like:
Popping FoF right before your highest enmity skill in your combo CAN result in more total enmity bonus from FoF. But it should never result in less.

While that is more correct. Interweaving Flash into your combos has little gain over a 4 Flash burst at the start of the fight(4 Flashes is the most any trash group should ever really need and put you at the 1/2 Max MP point). The diminishing returns drop on the 12s Blind after the first Flash makes trying to use it for mitigation less than viable.

A tank geared in appropriate level HQ gear should never lose a single target hate race with a level synced dps. Most peels off tanks are either 1. Another Tank fighting with you over who is tanking the target 2. A single Dps attacking a non-focus target.(Main reason marking the current target is a good idea) 3. A White Mage overhealing with AoE and HoTs. (Scholars split their hate between themselves and their pets so are unlikely to pull off you unless you mess up the pull.)

The 1980/2970 enmity potency of 4 Flashes goes a long way.

[Bardo]

While that is more correct. Interweaving Flash into your combos has little gain over a 4 Flash burst at the start of the fight(

You're 100% sure that flash is a static potency and the enmity isn't affected by whether or not the blind effect applies?

After Rage of Halone and Shield Oath, it's a joke.
It's also a complete joke for Marauder in the early levels, especially if you can cross class Invigorate.
But it's definitely more difficult in the early levels for Gladiator.

[Sadana]

As far as "Show Some Leg" - you know that only works against heterosexual/bisexual male and homosexual/bisexual female *humanoids*, right? Useless otherwise

LOL. It was more to make mobs think "dinner" rather than "sexy fun time". xDDDDD Hey... whatever works.



As far as folks suggesting I use Flash more... I'm using it until I'm oom unless the mobs are killed quickly. As I stated before, I pop Flash a couple times after Shield Lobbing the first target. Then I intersperse Flash every few to 5 hits which I share between the enemies.

A few responses on my blog about this have also mentioned "Oh, if someone in your party is overgeared, you will lose hate to them." What I want to know is why? If the new tank has to struggle so much against 50s in the DF/DR, isn't this one more problem that creates the tank shortage? I love helping new people and thought learning to play a tank role would help lots... but, because of this problem, I'm not about to go into the DF. And that defeats the whole purpose.

[whiskeybravo]

A few responses on my blog about this have also mentioned "Oh, if someone in your party is overgeared, you will lose hate to them." What I want to know is why? If the new tank has to struggle so much against 50s in the DF/DR, isn't this one more problem that creates the tank shortage? I love helping new people and thought learning to play a tank role would help lots... but, because of this problem, I'm not about to go into the DF. And that defeats the whole purpose.

The level sync evens the playing field for the most part. The main reason tanks have trouble early on is the lack of tools, mainly Rage of Halone for Gladiator, and Butcher's Block for Marauder. Think about it like this:

(hypothetical numbers)

Lancer does 200 damage creating 200 enmity
Conjurer cures for 200 HP creating 200 enmity
Gladiator does 90 damage with Savage Blade - which has a 3x Enmity modifier - creating 270 enmity

The tanks do not output the same physical damage as dps which is why their moves have "Enmity modifiers". Healing enmity is just whack so I won't try to explain that, but you see how with only one move - Savage Blade - it won't take long for dps to catch up with the tank on hate.

At lv26 you get Rage of Halone, which has a 5x modifier, and after that it's game over - no reason for dps to ever catch up on enmity unless you guys just aren't on the same page on the kill order (which happens a lot unfortunately, make sure to at least mark the first enemy!)