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  1. #1
    Player
    PlayerEx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    9
    Character
    Player Ex
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 36

    New Job: Pugilist Tank

    Simply add a new job to pugilist available at level thirty that fulfills the tank role. Tank would be focused around evasion for survival more than defence or HPs. This adds a tank role to every current monk.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    Maku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    728
    Character
    Maku Haikasu
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 70
    And you are going to get your position bonuses how?
    (0)
    可愛い悪魔

  3. #3
    Player
    Messenger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    170
    Character
    Messenger Aetherbreak
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Carpenter Lv 80
    THen give him a kunai + a utsusemi skill and you have...
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player
    Anienai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Camp Bluefrog
    Posts
    1,596
    Character
    Anienai Talenca
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    THen give him a kunai + a utsusemi skill and you have...
    No reason to bring a PLD tank.
    (3)

  5. #5
    Player
    Kitru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,334
    Character
    Kitru Kitera
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Maku View Post
    And you are going to get your position bonuses how?
    Just remove the positional requirements and fold them into the normal attacks (or change the positional requirement to "front" so that you can only get the benefit while being in front of the target, which means tanking).

    PGL is actually fertile ground for a tank job. You can coopt Greased Lightning to provide +eva instead of +dam while in the tank stance, which acts as both the damage reduction and the increased survivability; for enmity mods on the attacks, you can simply have raptor and coeurl forms increase enmity by x3 and x5, respectively, while those forms are active (another option would be to simply add high enmity mods to certain raptor and coeurl form requirement attacks if you don't want to have the problem PLD has with only being able to use high enmity combos); there's already a pretty decent native CD suite (Second Wind, Mantra, Featherfoot) that just needs a bit more (Conv from GLA, Foresight from MRD; just leaves 2 more from job), and there's Fists of Earth as well. You'd simply need to add a tank stance (30% +hp to provide slightly more eHP thanks to reliance upon RNG mitigation and 80% increase to def and mdef to make PGL armor equivalent to WAR/PLD armor; you could have it tweak Fists of Earth to have these attributes instead), a couple CDs, and probably some type of controllable effect similar to IB that increases max HP for those times when you need to deal with big spikes.
    (3)

  6. #6
    Player
    Alwryn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    91
    Character
    Alwryn Tourn
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    With the current design philosophy of ARR, a evasion based tank would break the game. Let's use the ever present twintania and extreme modes for examples. Firstly, we need to come to a understanding about evasion tank survivability. That is, for any semblance of balance, it's primary mitigation comes through evasion; meaning that it can't really take a hard hit. A obvious, but needed statement.

    Now, for extreme modes, or turn 2 of coil. I cite stacking debuffs. The ability to completely mitigate these raid mechanics through dodging, would completely void PLD and WAR in these encounter. In the case of twintania, the ability to evade Death Sentence would once again, break the encounter to the evasion tanks favor.

    Well, how do you fix such an obvious overpowered job? Well, for that to happen and not break the mechanics, would mean that DS or incinerate, or MB, or whatever would have to ALWAYS hit. meaning the evasion tanks primary means of mitigation is now void. Remember how evasion tanks can't really take strong hits, like death sentence? It would be underpowered in this case, if not completely unviable. This is only taking into account certain factors as well, for example, what about aoe damage? Now, I'm not saying a evasion tank isn't possible, but would require something really complex, such as tiered levels of evasion, you can't simply evade an attack but you can evade most of an attack. Which would be similar to a PLD, only with a better shield and fewer cooldowns. Of course, that's just a simple muse on my behalf and the actual viability of such a system is suspect.

    Point is, I extremely doubt an evasion tank is ever going to happen, and if it does, it'll be nothing like what most people will expect or want.
    (3)

  7. #7
    Player
    Kitru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,334
    Character
    Kitru Kitera
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Alwryn View Post
    With the current design philosophy of ARR, a evasion based tank would break the game. Let's use the ever present twintania and extreme modes for examples. Firstly, we need to come to a understanding about evasion tank survivability. That is, for any semblance of balance, it's primary mitigation comes through evasion; meaning that it can't really take a hard hit. A obvious, but needed statement.
    You're remarkably uninformed about tank design. There are 2 aspects of a tank that have to be balanced: eHP (the amount of premitigation damage that a tank can take in a single blow discounting any and all RNG effects) and mean mitigation (the effective increase in healing received based upon your mitigation effects as derived from reduction in damage taken over time). Certain mitigation mechanisms will bolster one while ignoring the other (+hp increases eHP but does nothing for mean mitigation; evasion and +healing increase mean mitigation while doing nothing for eHP) while others bolster both (damage reduction reduces damage over time and, because it's always there, increases eHP as well).

    If you're not completely ignorant of the dichotomy of tank mechanisms, it's actually easy to design an evasion tank. Hell, I actually outlined exactly what you'd need to do in my previous post: you give it +hp (to provide equivalent eHP) to make up for the fact that the evasion does nothing for it. You get the similar eHP as the other tanks (slightly higher to make up for the spikier damage profile) as well as similar mean mitigation, which means that it's balanced against the other tanks, no problem whatsoever.

    If you want to talk about truly borked tank designs that require all kinds of complex math and design to balance them out, try looking into blink tanking, like NIN in FFXI; blink effects create *all* kinds of problems because they're controlled 100% mitigation mechanisms (which means that they're either monumentally abusable if they can apply to anything and incredibly weak if big attacks go right through them) that are charge based (which means that their performance is *highly* dependent upon the number of incoming attacks per second, which causes wild vacillations in performance based upon the number of attackers and their attack speed).

    The only time tanks get borked is when the designer is ignorant of the actual mechanics and balance constructs involved (like conflating eHP with mean mitigation or assuming that there is only a single metric with which to measure tank survivability). If you actually know what you're doing, it's pretty simple as long as you understand the mechanics you're electing to deal with.
    (2)

  8. #8
    Player
    Kuwagami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    4,330
    Character
    Kuwagami Tarynke
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 78
    Here we go, an other "bring back the NIN we misused in FFXI please".

    No thanks
    (4)

  9. #9
    Player
    Kirinichibon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    174
    Character
    I'zizi Pi
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 65
    Blink/evasion tanks would break things. A light-weight magic class tank that gets its defense from magic buffs and attacks would be easy to balance. I'd be happy to see all melee classes given the ability to tank or dps in Light party content - and all magic classes given the ability to heal or dps.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player
    Bixby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,534
    Character
    Ampersand Kai
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 50
    If they want to get lazy with encounter design, they could always tack on a glancing blows concept for special moves, so that you're still "evading," just not the whole hit. Ducking enough so that you take it on the arm instead of the face is a good idea even if it doesn't get you completely out of the way.

    Leave auto-attacks all-or-nothing so there's still general spikiness and evasion. Then make special attacks glance a certain percentage at base. Maybe a random range, say 5-15%. Then let CDs increase that percentage. For example, Featherfoot on top of the tank stance would push your auto-attack evasion to 100%, and your special attack glancing percentage from 5-15% to 15-25% (or whatever). Other CDs can futz with the percentages in other ways and/or do something with self-healing.

    Throw in a longish CD that guarantees special attacks miss, but leaves you flat-footed (no glancing, no dodging) for X seconds afterward as an answer to HG/Holmgang.
    (1)

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