Observations on DPS in End Game

[Viridiana]

I still don't see how dps are not accountable for fights when Titan heart phase, ifrit ex nails, T4, T5 are all hard dps checks. If a raid wipes to any of the above mechanics, the fingers will be solely pointed to the dps. Maybe its not as obvious as a tank losing aggro or a healer not healing, but the collective dps has failed as a whole. And isn't there a saying like "you are only as good as your weakest member" or something like that.

I can kinda see where you are going with parsers, but the fact is most of the player community has not progressed to a point where parsers are necessary imho. Do you really think you need a parser for wp, ak ct or any of the hm dungeons? If SE decides to include parsers as a feature in the game, its just going to grief more players than it benefits. And serious raiders who are challenging end game content are going to get parsers one way or another, regardless of whether its allowed by SE or not.

Except that I could fail Titan heart phase over and over again. Without a parser, I'm not going to be able to see who's playing sub-par and causing the group to fail. You can say that the group is only as good as its weakest member, but how fair is it to then deny the group one of the primary tools they can use to improve themselves?

As far as needing it for AK. . .I've seen some pretty poor dps in there. Fights where we wiped to the first boss because DPS couldn't kill the golems fast enough to even really damage the boss itself. Fights where the Wall just pushes us inexorably toward the back of the room. Fights where we finish as a fifth Catastrophe is being cast. These are all times that I would've loved to be able to tell the DPS what they were doing wrong, but it's somewhat beyond my ability to catch everything that my teammates are doing while simultaneously running all over the arena contending with mechanics.

And honestly, the idea that people don't need parsers purely because they're still on easy content seems odd to me. The easy content should be building you toward the harder content, in the same way that leveling up builds you to the level 50 content. Letting people get by with lousy rotations and having no tool to correct them with just means that when they get to difficult content they have to forget everything they know about their class and completely relearn it. I don't know about you, but I'd rather learn BLM in WP where I won't often have to move than learn it while also trying to learn Titan Extreme. . .

[KiraVaela]

One of the reasons people don't use/talk parsers is that even if you just make a thread about it, you are pretty much instantly labeled as an elitist jerk and you have to defend yourself to no end (as seen here) even if your point was just to help out players to get better, which is ultimately what they most likely want.

Only way to get around this is by covering your sentences with sugar in such way not even the most "moral casual elitist" will be offended. So next time, try to start every sentence with: "In my opinion...", "I think...", "I might be wrong...", "In my experience...", etc...

Good luck!

[skaterger]

snip

Back when I played Wow, someone in the raid would post dmg done/dps from recount into raid chat. After the raid, officers would also briefly analyze different parameters (dmg taken, number of times a particular skill is used etc) for boss fights and if someone wasn't performing up to expectations, they would pm them to have a chat about it. This is what I call constructive use of parsers. If SE can incorporate something like this into ffxiv I would be totally receptive of it as it would help fcs and statics so much for progression fights.

This is all well and good within the context of a grp of people playing together regularly but what if used in DF and PF which do you think would be the more likely scenario?

1) Point out to the newbie the inaccuracies in his rotation and help him overcome it
2) Humiliate him, kick him out of party or leave party?

My point being, if its a straight up dps check and who isn't pulling their weight, its not hard to tell at all. The threat meter, while not 100% accurate can be used as a rough gauge.

Now imagine this expended to the duty finder in CT where there are 24 players. People were already abusing the ready check and vote abandon system? Can you imagine the fiasco if a parser was introduced?

[mythicrose]

...which do you think would be the more likely scenario?

1) Point out to the newbie the inaccuracies in his rotation and help him overcome it
2) Humiliate him, kick him out of party or leave party?

Hmm...based on my own experiences over the last decade, I'll go with number 1. Nah...who am I kidding. Number two all the way.

[bokchoykn]

snip

I thought about what the game would be like if the game had a built-in parser, and I'm inclined to agree with you that the disadvantages would outweigh the benefits. Players would be more accountable and in turn play would improve, but at the same time, it would also facilitate toxic behavior like the stuff that you've mentioned. It would probably have a negative impact on casual players, creating an atmosphere of paranoia and toxicity.

Then I think about new/learning and unskilled tanks. Their performance is already constantly exposed to the rest of the group, just like a DD's would be if the game had a built-in parser. Except instead of low numbers, he also looks like a complete idiot when he screws up tanking. That's probably why tanks are so scarce. But I digress.

The OP was more directed at probably the upper 25% (guessing) of the game's players (in terms of skill, progression and intensity) who are actually doing end-game stuff that requires a higher standard of play.

If I was to implement an in-game parser in FFXIV, the data would be private and confidential to the specific player using it, with the option to share with teammates with the click of a button. If a teammate chooses to share with you, you can see his total damage dealt, how many of each skill he used, how many auto-attacks he landed, his critical hit rate, etc... just like you could see your own.

BTW: Threat meter is a bad way to show damage contribution. Quelling Strikes and Elusive Jump exist. Monks don't have any threat-management abilities. Plus, there are AoE situations and adds in every fight, while threat meter only shows the threat on each individual target. You can't tell who's carrying their weight on Ifrit EX nails using a threat meter.

[Judge_Xero]

I've done the EX fights enough times to tell when people aren't pulling their weight. I play the majority of classes so I know what to expect from them.

Picking out who is just there for a carry is the hard part for DPS though.
Like Titan EX with a full I85 group and Titan gets three MB off before jumping. I don't like to see more than 1 MB with a group that geared. But at 3 there is an obvious issue.

I've seen more parties fall apart due to not knowing where the exact issue is. Aside from Obvious Tank and Healer issues. Being able to see others output and allowing a chance to improve before replacing has saved more parties I've been in than ones it has ruined. (Actually, immediate intervention has worked much better than waiting until frustration sets in)

I think a DPS tool would be helpful if it worked like the rest of the voting tools. Everyone should vote if they want it to be displayed and majority dictates.

[Bixby]

I wonder what the effect would be if there were content with individual mechanical consequences for low DPS. Fights where DPS below a certain threshold get knocked around and/or called out by the boss, some kind of mechanic that makes it clear Joe Schmoe needs to work a bit harder. Make the accountability visible, direct, instead of just a vague lack of stuff dying or phases not ending fast enough, without making it an explicit number. Wouldn't have to be every fight, either. Just a roadblock here and there that makes people have to figure it out so they reach a minimum capability threshold.

[bokchoykn]

snip.

Yeah, it's pretty easy to see when the collective DPS is good or bad. It's impossible to see it on an individual level without a parser.

I've done a TON of Titan EX PF's (to help people and out of boredom), and so many times I'll see someone at 150 DPS criticizing the PLD's positioning or the ripping on the BRD for dying to plumes. I want to say to him "do you realize that you're not pulling your weight either? the tank will eventually get it and the BRD will eventually be more careful, but your DPS will always be low."

[skaterger]

Trim

Ditto about the threat meter. I don't parse for every fight so its the only available real time approximation on who is pulling their weight or not. Its still useful for some fights though. Like you can see the threat meter on conflags to see which dps is slow to switch to conflag (if you are dying to fast conflags).

I'm curious though, if parsers are already being run in the background *hush hush*, then why the insistance it be made an in-game feature that all players have access to? It seems that this would cause more grief than anything else. If the point was to help the player improve, then having it run in game or in the background would make no difference. The information is still the same where you get it from.

Btw, thanks for keeping this discussion civil. And also, there seems to be a thread in GD about parsing too you might want to check it out.

[bokchoykn]

snip.

I don't think there is a huge problem with how things are now: Parsers are third-party, used by those who want to use them. I'm not necessarily advocating for an in-game parser to be implemented. If one was to be implemented or if the game allowed for custom UI mods, I would welcome it with open arms, but I don't think the issue is the absence of an in-game parser.

I think the major issue is that players are ignorant about DPS. The problem lies within the community and culture of MMO's where (outside of the most competitive and skilled players) maximizing damage output isn't considered important, parsers are considered poison, and there is no incentive to improve.