Holmgang useless?

[Kitru]

At the start of 2.1 there was a bug where holmgang wasn't preventing knock backs from things like landslide, but it has since been fixed. I've used holmgang while tanking titan's gaolers to prevent the knock back. It's by no means ideal since the 6 second window is on the short side and the fact that you can't move while it's on means you can effectively lock yourself in place so you can't avoid the slides if you use it too early, but it can be done.

Holmgang does prevent KB but it does it a helluva lot less effectively than Tempered Will. TW lasts longer, doesn't bind the user (so they can dodge all of the other stuff that the Titan throws alongside LSs), doesn't require a target to be nearby, and doesn't consume the user's uber-survivability CD in the process. As I've been saying since 2.1 release, Holmgang tries to do too much which makes it do none of those things well:

• Because it a binds the target, it can't have the duration that would make it useful for survival and physics immunity. Furthermore, it has to have limited range which means that the pull is basically worthless and, as a tank CD, it is more situational because something *has* to be right in your face.
• Because it's an uber-survivability ability, it can't have a CD that makes the bind/pull anything beyond a gimmick.
• Because it binds *you*, the survival and physics benefits are reduced because you're forced to eat whatever it is that's thrown at you for the next 7-8 seconds or so (if you get a red zone/plume thrown at the end, you're not going to be able to run out of it in time).

Holmgang really should be split into 3 separate abilities: a bind/pull (that binds you), an uber-survivability CD, and a physics immunity CD (you could split it into 2, but that would compromising the usefulness of one of the factors). A separate bind/pull would actually allow you to put it on a CD that makes those effects useful (45-60 secs) and only get yourself bound for the effect that actually requires you be bound for balance purposes; as separate uber-survivability tank CD would let you give it a duration that makes it have an appreciable effect (10 secs); a separate physics immunity CD would allow you to be immune to physics without getting stuck in one spot the entire time.

Adding 2 abilities to the class is probably a bit too much, so I'd be happy if they put the physics immunity on Unchained (keep the physics limited to a 10 sec duration; the 2 min CD is balanced by the Wrath requirement). Holmgang itself could stay as the bind/pull (since it's got the perfect animation for it in the first place). All that leaves is adding one extra ability (probably at level 50) for the uber-survivability (ACN already provides 18 instead of the standard 17 because it gets 2 abilities at 4 instead of only 1).

[Traek]

I'm 99.999% sure that bug was fixed in 2.15 or one of the other smaller patches since 2.1

It was. I confirmed myself to be sure when they reported the fix. What people might be confused about is Titan EX's upheaval. This knock backs everyone regardless of CD used, including manawall/hallowed ground/tempered will, which all work on landslide. I believe it was designed this way because it is used as the enrage to knock everyone off at the end.

Cad can kill you nevertheless. I think twintania ravages you too, I might test someday to confirm. In a général manner, pretty everyboss that doesn't care about the root can kill you through your "invincibilty".

??? This isn't true at all. Holmgang works on all mechanics Hallowed Ground works on. I've personally used it on all bosses in Coil at one point or another. Not sure what you are talking about. Holmgang is useful if you are going to die otherwise. If you aren't using Holmgang before you die, you are doing it wrong. Whether it roots a boss is irrelevant. I do wish they'd take out the self root for anything unable to be rooted though. Obviously keep the no knockback portion of it.

[Ferth]

stuff

I completely agree that holmgang is a terribly designed skill. It tries to do too many things and doesn't do any of them well. Honestly the skill itself doesn't really fit well in the game. I think whoever thought it up is too attached to it to realize that, though.

[Kitru]

I completely agree that holmgang is a terribly designed skill. It tries to do too many things and doesn't do any of them well. Honestly the skill itself doesn't really fit well in the game. I think whoever thought it up is too attached to it to realize that, though.

In 2.0, it made sense. The idea was that you were using your axe to bind yourself to the target, such that neither of you could move or get pushed around because you were anchored to the other. It was still borked and a little overloaded (target bind and physics immunity) but viable because you were bound even if the target wasn't, but that's something that's probably programmatically annoying to implement.

The problem was that, in 2.1, they tried to add too much to it: they added a pull and the uber-survivability to an ability that was already effect heavy, which simply exacerbated what was already a highly problematic ability. Their fix for Holmgang (making it not a generally worthless ability) just blew up in their face.

[Soulburn32]

I completely agree that holmgang is a terribly designed skill. It tries to do too many things and doesn't do any of them well. Honestly the skill itself doesn't really fit well in the game. I think whoever thought it up is too attached to it to realize that, though.

Basically this. Tries to do to many things and isn't good at any of them.

[Traek]

I wish they'd just take all heals received during Holmgang and apply it as the effect wears off. Most of us Warrior's called out its problems upon seeing it in the 2.1 patch notes, and it has played out just as we thought. At least having the heal effect tack on at the end would make it a bit stronger as a CD, without breaking it (Hallowed ground would still be stronger).

The problem was that, in 2.1, they tried to add too much to it: they added a pull and the uber-survivability to an ability that was already effect heavy, which simply exacerbated what was already a highly problematic ability. Their fix for Holmgang (making it not a generally worthless ability) just blew up in their face.

I do wish they'd split it up, because I agree with your assessment of the problem and proposed fix. Even if its just *can't lower hp below 1* on one CD, and the *Root/Chain effect on both target/user* effect on the other. Inability to move out of the next attack after successfully surviving the CD just defeats the purpose.

[Kuwagami]

Video proof please. Holmgang works on Cad, unless they broke it recently.

Sadly the turn is done and my computer can't run a video recorder at the same time as I play. Though holmagang never worked for me in T1. Perfectly fine on everything else, but not T1. I know I was late on the reaction a couple of time, but that doesn't explain all my death. But I may try it with 2.2 when it becomes free access and free farm to see if it was just heavy lag issues (ie skill launching on screen but never recorded in server) or if it's really broken on cad

[BotenAnna]

Not a warrior, but my raid's warrior was able to do 8 stacks in T2, only to be outshone by our PLD that did 10 stacks for T2 too

Although it's not prefect but it's still very useful in a "oh shit" time.

It only stacks to 8

[Shinkyo]

Did a titan XM run where I accidentally used Holmgang (because I was too quick on switching crossbar), got bind and ate fully stacked plume... Survived the hit of course but the Stomps killed me afterwards...
PLD hitting HG by accident wouldn't have that issue.


but yeah, Holmgang is pretty terrible even if I was pretty excited about it when I read the patch notes. I totally agree that it tries to do too much things but also:
- the start-up is waaaaaay to long to be effectively used on reaction... So many times, I tried to use it seeing I was in critical condition but the 1 sec start-up is plenty of time to die even though you'll still see the binding effect on the mob...
- Duration is ridiculous too... Since you have that star-up delay, you really only have 5 sec to get a benediction so the healer needs to be really quick to react and cast.

Without changing too much the design, I'd be ok with the still if we remove the start-up time and it really become instant either extend the duration to 10s at least.
And maybe as a bonus, increase IB healing to the original 300% so that we could have a chance to help in the recovery from 1hp...

[Shneibel]

It was. I confirmed myself to be sure when they reported the fix. What people might be confused about is Titan EX's upheaval. This knock backs everyone regardless of CD used, including manawall/hallowed ground/tempered will, which all work on landslide. I believe it was designed this way because it is used as the enrage to knock everyone off at the end

are you sure about that ? last week I pop temple will on upheaval by accident miss click and I did not get knock back