Offtank Garuda Ex (Warrior Help)

[kayuwoody]

Triangle method pretty much blows. It raises the DPS requirement, raises the gear requirement, slows you down, and really doesn't reduce the risk of a wipe at all. You ask 4 people to do the job of one, and if they screw up, it's a wipe. Even worse when people think you should flip tank positions to avoid the stacks, going ever higher on the risk scale. Says enough that it basically requires extreme overgear or using a melee LB every single sister phase -- you can ALWAYS zerg Suparna if you're going so far as to use LB.

First of all I've seen some of your other posts and tend to agree with you in general. You generally present and reason out your posts quite well.

On this I'll have to disagree though. I'm on Tonberry and learned the 2 way method first simply because I'm english speaking, and the 2 way is still the standard method in english speaking PF groups. But as Tonberry is a JP server, the 3 way method is the default method for any other parties.

The 2 way method raises the gear requirement, not the other way around. I completely do not see how the 3 way requires higher gear. I definitely wouldn't want to do the 2 way pull with the minimum ilvl requirement, but the 3 way is quite doable.

It definitely reduces the risk of a wipe in comparison to the 2 way pull. Major cause of tank death (and subsequent wipes) in 2 way pull is tanks messing up with the double wicked wheels by either not having mitigation up, or more commonly, eating a slipstream just before and healers not topping them up in time. Major cause of death for melee with the 2 way: tornadoes (but you'll have those with the 3 way too of course) and wicked wheels. Double wicked wheels for a sure death! Removing this mechanic directly results in less chances for wipes to occur.
In trade what you do get is higher chance for dps to die if they cannot understand just one thing: they need to split downburst damage. That one thing in exchange for never having to deal with double wicked wheels is a pretty good trade off.

You are completely correct in that the fight takes longer with the 3 way pull. However the fight is much safer, and doable with relatively crappier gear.

I think when discussing strategies one must do so not from the position of someone farming the content, but a strategy that can be used by new players to clear the content. The 2 way pull is riskier, but faster, so much more suitable for people who have it on farm or overgear the content. The 3 way pull can be done if everyone is reasonably decent at playing their roles. I think this is where a major difference is with JP and other servers. I cannot help but think that the majority of people who dislike the 3 way pull simply do not come across decent DF parties.

When I think about it this way, if people have the 2 way on farm and then try to do the 3 way method, it might actually be worse for them. There's more work for everyone involved rather than just having the tanks sort it out and dps can zerg with the 2 way.

[Traek]

-snip-

Well put. This is also how I feel on the issue.

Gamemako, it definitely doesn't require higher gear level, it requires much less gear level on all fronts, and is definitely a beginner friendly strat. That is my main beef with NA strat. It is very unforgiving on both the MT and heals, and often leads to larger issues that end up wiping the group.

*Edit* I also am not arguing against the strong points of DWW strat. It is certainly a viable strat, and faster. I just wish the 3 way strat was implemented from the start, so it was standard, and DWW would have evolved from it, keeping its place as more niche and higher gear required. It would have been healthier for the end game IMO.

[Lemon8or]

I completely do not see how the 3 way requires higher gear.

I think they were considering the scenarios where Garuda and Suparna switch places (which is a certain time after they spawn or 50% HP Chirada, whichever comes first), Suparna will be closer to the group of DPS that are on Chirada (if they start out with OT pulling Suparna on opposite side of DPS pulling Chirada). Unless the tanks switch places as well, the sisters will be closer and have stacks up, thus reducing your damage greatly until Chirada is dead.

[Gamemako]

Triangle does increase the coordination requirement, specifically for DPS, but I don't see how it requires more DPS.

Removes positionals for MNK and DRG unless they commit to being lower DPS than a ranged (lol). A melee DPS taking aggro at the wrong time will turn Chirada around and one-shot him. Forces any BLMs or SMNs to stop attacking while they dodge Slipstream or move into position to share Downburst. Again, any mistakes among 4 people here can easily mean a wipe. You also have one tank smacking Garuda for no damage for the entire phase, lowering your DPS and further lengthening the fight.

If you can zerg a sister with LB1 before wheels happen I'd say you're overgearing the content already, in which case most of the strategy doesn't even matter so is it really worth discussing?

I don't put up ilvl requirements in my parties, and regularly get people in Darklight. When you zerg, you have 7 people bashing on Suparna plus a limit break that chews off 1/4 of her HP. You'll have PLD with Sword Oath and WAR with Unchained + Berserk doing maximum damage along with a healer and 4 DPS, plus LB.

As for the spiny, there're ONLY 1 scenario when OT needs to grab it at the begining of the tornato phase, that is "when the spiny spawns on MT AND there's a need for the OT to grab Saprana later on". the reason here is obvious - you cannot provoke Saprana AND spiny at the same time.

Even then, it's much harder and messier to have MT pull Garuda away from the group in eye phase than to have OT take the spiny away. OT always has the opportunity to hold onto the spiny, so there's no reason to risk the raid by letting it go free.

The 2 way method raises the gear requirement, not the other way around. I completely do not see how the 3 way requires higher gear. I definitely wouldn't want to do the 2 way pull with the minimum ilvl requirement, but the 3 way is quite doable.

So if DWW is less than 5k damage as it is to my WAR with no parries and including accompanying autoattacks, how exactly does it raise gear requirement over something that lowers your DPS considerably? The opposite is true.

It definitely reduces the risk of a wipe in comparison to the 2 way pull. Major cause of tank death (and subsequent wipes) in 2 way pull is tanks messing up with the double wicked wheels

Just plain doesn't happen unless the tank is totally fresh, in which case you're going to die in the first place because there's inevitably going to be a spiny mistake that wipes the raid. Dying due to eating a Slipstream before DWW is pretty damn difficult in the first place, because DWW would have to precede the jump and your healers would need to be asleep at the wheel. Moreover, if your DPS ate Chirada's Slipstream (4 times as likely), you wipe just as quickly. Also, if your teammates are dying to tornadoes, you were too lazy to set waymarks before the fight and have no-one to blame but yourself. Set the marks before the fight.

I think this is where a major difference is with JP and other servers. I cannot help but think that the majority of people who dislike the 3 way pull simply do not come across decent DF parties.

I win the majority of my DF runs. Only two things really ever go wrong in execution: OT doesn't know what to do, or heals/DPS like to eat feathers and die. Well, that and the occasions where someone doesn't know what to do at all and doesn't get in the bubble. Those happen too, but it doesn't take long to fix.

[Kitfox]

I don't put up ilvl requirements in my parties, and regularly get people in Darklight. When you zerg, you have 7 people bashing on Suparna plus a limit break that chews off 1/4 of her HP. You'll have PLD with Sword Oath and WAR with Unchained + Berserk doing maximum damage along with a healer and 4 DPS, plus LB.

Sounds interesting and doable. Less stress on positioning but more on ability usage. I can still imagine some things that can go wrong with that but I won't argue before I try it out. ^^ Although, it seems like the majority got all their primal items already so it's hard to get a farming party together... much less one that's willing to experiment strategies.

[kayuwoody]

Removes positionals for MNK and DRG unless they commit to being lower DPS than a ranged (lol).

There's no reason to lose positionals. Chirada can be tanked by a caster but ideally a bard. The monks and drgs can keep their positionals till the big crosshair appears. It's really not difficult, they simply have to understand how downburst works, and take the 1.5 secs to move and stack when it happens. I'd say if anyone can traverse the tornadoes they're doing a harder task already. People do this all the time for plumes in Titan EX too, this behaviour isn't a big jump.

I don't put up ilvl requirements in my parties, and regularly get people in Darklight. When you zerg, you have 7 people bashing on Suparna plus a limit break that chews off 1/4 of her HP.

I've never tried zerging Suparna. I've always wanted to but no one wants to do it for some reason. Logically it is probably the better strategy. However this isn't tied to a 2/3 way pull, you can still target her first either way.

So if DWW is less than 5k damage as it is to my WAR with no parries and including accompanying autoattacks, how exactly does it raise gear requirement over something that lowers your DPS considerably? The opposite is true.

Well my PLD is i85 and my main cause of death is definitely DWW, which you could also say is partly due to healer inexperience. It hasn't happened in a very long time now as I think a lot more people are more familiar with the fight. I think what you probably have is people debuffing DWW along with proactive healers. If a healer is inexperienced and healing reactively it can be too late. You can get a very inexperienced healer for the 3 way pull and it wouldn't matter.
Thinking of it though, I think you are correct. My earlier trauma from DWW has colored my perception. I could get away with significantly lower ilvl and still survive DWW, assuming my healer is decent. But on the average pug party? I'd much rather have either more gear on the tank (like i80 and maybe i75 on healers), or a 3 way pull.

Just plain doesn't happen unless the tank is totally fresh

My view has always been looking at a relatively inexperienced group.

Dying due to eating a Slipstream before DWW is pretty damn difficult in the first place, because DWW would have to precede the jump and your healers would need to be asleep at the wheel.

I don't think DWW being tied to Chirada's hp is that common knowledge outside of communities who read forums. I certainly didn't know of this in my earlier fights and sometimes did not have mitigation up in time as a result. As you can imagine those attempts went south pretttty quickly. I have personally experienced the dying to DWW due to eating a slipstream just before (IR BADDIE), so yes, healers asleep at the wheel, but so was the tank. It happens! When I heal, I still see tanks eat the slipstream often enough. But having been on the other end of that I know to watch for it so they're topped off in time for DWW. The MT does have a lot to look out for in a 2 way pull, and I think a rather large number of tanks don't reliably dodge the slipstreams while trying to keep an eye on spiny stacks.

I win the majority of my DF runs. Only two things really ever go wrong in execution: OT doesn't know what to do, or heals/DPS like to eat feathers and die. Well, that and the occasions where someone doesn't know what to do at all and doesn't get in the bubble. Those happen too, but it doesn't take long to fix.

Well people not knowing what to do is just part and parcel of the MMO experience. Major cause of wipes on my pug runs is usually tank or dps death leading to insufficient dps. Main cause of death for both is wicked wheels, whether the single or double scoop. We know it's not a hard mechanic, but ask the majority of people running Garuda EX what their problem is, and I'd hazard to guess DWW.

Traek sums it up nicely but I get long winded!

Gamemako, it definitely doesn't require higher gear level, it requires much less gear level on all fronts, and is definitely a beginner friendly strat. That is my main beef with NA strat. It is very unforgiving on both the MT and heals, and often leads to larger issues that end up wiping the group.