The Old Paladin vs. Marauder Debate

[Jonah_Greymont]

I'm recently returning from a 3-month hiatus, and I was wondering if much of anything has changed about the strengths and/or weaknesses comparison between the two tanking jobs. Has SE done anything to enhance the popularity or (controversially) the effectiveness of the Marauder?

I understand there was a substantial rivalry between PLDs and MRDs a few months ago, but it seemed Paladin was the preferred tank overall at the time. I am not asking this question to revive a debate on who is better necessarily, but I was specifically wondering if Marauder has been shown any love in recent updates.

Edit: Wow, such noobness on my part. By Marauder I of course mean Warrior.

[Kitru]

Has SE done anything to enhance the popularity or (controversially) the effectiveness of the Marauder?

WAR got buffed so very very much with 2.1: the WAR CD suite was improved significantly (ToB doubled duration, Vengeance now provides 30% DR for the duration in addition to normal effects; Holmgang now prevents you from dying while it is active), they overhauled the Wrath consumers (IB now heals for 100% and provides 20% DR for 6 seconds after use; Unchained is on a 120 sec CD; Steel Cyclone has a high enmity modifier, probably 5x), they buffed the crap out of Storm's Path (now provides a 10% damage debuff in addition to the healing), and they made Overpower more cost effective (increased high enmity modifier from 3x to 5x), and they removed the +healing from Wrath and put it on Defiance while also increasing it to 20% so that WAR is no longer appreciably penalized for actually using the Wrath consumers.

I think that was everything. All in all, it has made WARa much more balanced and effective tank at all tiers of content.

As to the current state of balance, it's generally believed that PLD and WAR are balanced exceptionally well. WAR has better damage but PLD has better utility; WAR mitigates predictable spike damage best while PLD is better at mitigating long periods of intensely high damage. The only place where there's an explicit and potentially unbalanced position is AoE enmity/damage in which WAR is indisputably king: Flash is still as mediocre as always and Overpower/Steel Cyclone only got better: it's basically impossible for a PLD to get AoE aggro if a WAR cares the slightest bit about getting it.

[Bixby]

Just so you can see what all has changed, patch notes for 2.1, 2.15, and 2.16.

And just noticing that even after the flurry of corrections and updates after they initially posted the 2.1 patch notes, they still list Maraduer as "Brutal Swing" in the class/job change chart.

[Jonah_Greymont]

Appreciate the responses, guys. I'll dig into the patch notes closely in a bit, but it looks as though Kitru has given a decent overview of what changes were implemented. I'm still debating on leveling Warrior once I've completed everything with Paladin, but even if I don't it's good to see that SE did resolve several of the complaints people had about Warrior/Marauder.

[MrDiezel]

As a Warrior, I still think a Paladin is the go-to tank. Based off of damage mitigation alone, its the safe bet. For example, I know a paladin can eat 2 Wicked Wheels tanking Garuda Ex, but that then depends on the user and how they use cooldowns. War is much more fun hands down, and do make an EXCELLENT off tank. Youll want to have both during Coils and Ex primals. Paladin to absorb a lot of damage, Warrior for its dps capabilities since most end-game content are pretty strict on dps.

[Mordermi]

As a Warrior, I still think a Paladin is the go-to tank. Based off of damage mitigation alone, its the safe bet. For example, I know a paladin can eat 2 Wicked Wheels tanking Garuda Ex, but that then depends on the user and how they use cooldowns. War is much more fun hands down, and do make an EXCELLENT off tank. Youll want to have both during Coils and Ex primals. Paladin to absorb a lot of damage, Warrior for its dps capabilities since most end-game content are pretty strict on dps.

Warrior can also eat 2 Wicked Wheels with cooldowns.

As for OP's inquiry, WAR and PLD are pretty well balanced after 2.1.

Edit: There are still some places where one tank might have the edge over the other (ex. PLD's Hallowed Ground for double dreads in T4), but they are pretty evenly matched for most things.

[Shinkyo]

For example, I know a paladin can eat 2 Wicked Wheels tanking Garuda Ex

WAR is an amazing MT for Garuda Ex because for each double WW we'll always have:
- 20% damage reduce from IB
- 30% damage reduce from Vengeance
- 25% extra HP from ToB

Add in stoneskin and adloquium and double WW is really not a thread at all. PLD will have strong CDs too but not available on each phase.
WAR can have every up for every burst on that fight.
Additionally, during razor plume phase, WAR MT can do Steel cyclone > Infuriate > Steel cyclone to kill them faster and allow more time to dps Garuda.


Ever since 2.1 patch, my static has put me MT on most end content because we just kick ass now (Garuda Ex, T4, T5). Caduceus and Ifrit Ex are the only fight where I feel PLD has an advantage because of constant high incoming damage. Both class are really well balanced now, PLD being still a more well rounded class but WAR is an amazing MT for predictable burst and amazing OT because amazing AoE aggro, low enmity combos and debuffs.

[Kitru]

Caduceus and Ifrit Ex are the only fight where I feel PLD has an advantage because of constant high incoming damage.

Ifrit is actually really spiky because a vast majority of his damage comes in through the fire breath that applies Suppuration. If you learn how/when to predict them, WAR can be absolutely amazing at tanking Ifrit and, because Ifrit basically forces tank swaps after about 30-40 seconds, WAR will have exactly half of their CD suite available each go around (Foresight or Featherfoot for the first 15-20 seconds; Vengeance or Convalescence/ToB for the second half). PLD has to balance out their 90/180 second CDs to cover everything. The big advantage that PLD has for Ifrit is HG for when shit hits the fan and the healers can't get to the tanks when a double fire breath is coming which isn't always needed.

[bokchoykn]

In the final nails phase, there are a couple of instances where Ifrit will cast three consecutive Incinerates. With proper timing, Paladin can use Hallowed Ground to absorb all three Incinerates.

One of the sequences in the final phase goes like this:

-Ifrit does a triple Incinerate, putting our Paladin at 3 stacks of Suppuration, all of which are mitigated with Sentinel.
-Ifrit casts Eruption on the OT, and then turns to cast Inferno Howl on one of the healers.
-As Ifrit is turning back around to face the tank, our Paladin pops Hallowed Ground.
-Ifrit does another triple Incinerate, all of which are absorbed by Hallowed Ground for zero damage and therefore no stacks of Suppuration.
-Suppuration wears of on our Paladin and he continues to tank Ifrit for another three stacks (w/ Rampart and Convalescence).


Using this method, our Paladin takes nine consecutive Incinerates, never going above three stacks and never taking an Incinerate without a major cooldown up. There are only two tank swaps throughout the entirety of the final nail phase. The other tank (usually me) spends almost the whole phase running around and killing nails in his DPS stance. Most importantly, it makes it super easy on the healers and they almost never fall behind on healing.

This is the most effective use of Hallowed Ground vs Ifrit EX and the reason why Paladin owns this fight.