support jobs

[Gamemako]

I think the Support jobs can work, if they share Slot in the duty finder with DPS.

Absolutely not. They are unbalanceable if they share slots with DPS. To implement a support job, you must implement a complete support role independent of DPS roles and force players to use standard composition (Tank/2xDPS/Support/Heal) for every piece of content. Support jobs are inherently overpowered in larger parties and inherently underpowered in small parties. Consider these scenarios:

Let's say you have a DPS-support type job, which are easier to balance but still broken. Deals 70% of normal DPS damage, but buffs party by 10%.

5 players, healer DPS at zero, tank DPS at 50%, support DPS at 70%, dedicated DPS at 100%, support buff of 10% DPS
3 DPS: 350%
2 DPS 1 support: 352%
1 DPS 2 support: 348%
3 support: 338%

-> 1 support is fine, 2 is fine, 3 is bad. Support is mostly OK here, right?

Now at 10 players, same rules
6 DPS: 700%
5 DPS, 1 support: 737%
4 DPS, 2 support: 768%
3 DPS, 3 support: 793%
2 DPS, 4 support: 812%
1 DPS, 5 support: 825%
6 support: 832%

-> More support, more damage.

What looks balanced in 4-player content is overpowered in 8-player content. It's even worse if you make it more dedicated. Consider 50% of normal DPS with 20% buff:

5 players, healer DPS at zero, tank DPS at 50%, support DPS at 50%, dedicated DPS at 100%, support buff of 20% DPS
3 DPS: 350%
2 DPS 1 support: 360%
1 DPS 2 support: 350%
3 support: 320%

-> 1 support is optimal, 3 support is bad. Still not too bad balance-wise.

Now at 10 players, same rules
6 DPS: 700%
5 DPS, 1 support: 780%
4 DPS, 2 support: 840%
3 DPS, 3 support: 880%
2 DPS, 4 support: 900%
1 DPS, 5 support: 900%
6 support: 880%

-> Spirals out of control

The more support-heavy it gets, the more jacked your balance gets. In order to balance the jobs in general, you have to put a hard limits on party composition. Moreover, non-DPS support is either essential or useless.

[Mattlex]

I'm thinking it is possible to have a Support class without breaking the balance of the game if the class was able to switch between stances/forms.
For example ...
RDM - could have Attack/Magic/Support Stances where each are enchanced when switched to but the others become limited.
For instance, the RDM switched to Attack stance it's attack power and sword skills become available at the cost of magic/support abilities.
If it switched to Support it would be able to use a host of significant buff/debuff abilities/spells at the cost of physical attack power and limits the access to higher tier healing/attack spells.

[UBERHAXED]

I'm thinking it is possible to have a Support class without breaking the balance of the game if the class was able to switch between stances/forms.
For example ...
RDM - could have Attack/Magic/Support Stances where each are enchanced when switched to but the others become limited.
For instance, the RDM switched to Attack stance it's attack power and sword skills become available at the cost of magic/support abilities.
If it switched to Support it would be able to use a host of significant buff/debuff abilities/spells at the cost of physical attack power and limits the access to higher tier healing/attack spells.

But this will single-handedly break the balance of the game because people will have 1 tank and 7 of these...

[Mattlex]

But this will single-handedly break the balance of the game because people will have 1 tank and 7 of these...

Not really, if they design it right a RDM in Attack stance should never be on par with a MNK/DRG and likewise in Magic stance should not be on par or better than BLM or WHM as they would only have access to lower Tier magic... basically it would be an all round DPS/Support class. If balanced correctly an RDM could potentially do great DPS by switching between the stances efficiently.

Also... if the enhancing abilities were designed to buff specific classes other than RDM it would make it inefficient to have 7 RDMS in a party.

[LalaRu]

... Bard as we know it today should be renamed to Ranger and remain as DPS ...

Bard as I know it today, is not a DPS because its LB is healing, is a DPS because we list as dps in DF, is not a support because he cannot even support himself (no heal, unless you call heal a skill with 180s cooldown and little effect), is a support because, again, we have healing LB. I really don't know what a Bard is then.

To be called support, I think Bard misses a HP regen song.

[Knives]

For everyone saying they should keep BRD the way it is and make RNG as well, it's currently slightly too damaging to be cast into the support role. If you asked me, BRD would need certain abilities to be remade into songs or debuffs, and some form of off-healing (Example; "Flaming Arrow" could be changed into a friendly ground-targeted AoE mild Regen called, idk, Healing Spring, with a trait called uhh... "Enchanted Fountain" that makes the field do different things for different roles I.E. DPS gains accuracy or damage buff, Support gains MP refresh, Tanks receive increased healing, Healers gain spell-speed). RNG would need the songs to be taken away in favor of personal damage buffs, and abilities that become stronger or weaker depending on distance to add a risk-reward concept to an otherwise safe profession.

I do think that support roles should deal considerable damage, but should be such that you don't really need more than one (or 2 in 8-man) in the group due to the nature of their abilities. 4-man groups should simply be such that they can be completed with DPS and Support roles being interchangeable, t1/d2(1)/s(1)/h1 prioritizing it such that if ranged DPS, melee support. If melee DPS, ranged support. If no supports, 2 DPS. No DPS, 2 supports. 8-man groups would be similar, t2/d4(2,3)/s(1,2)/h2 with supports simply making the situation easier on the party, but generally interchangeable with DPS. This would guarantee that queues are still manageable if there are few support players, but made such that a support class brings peace of mind to stressful situations while keeping things moving at a steady pace. Generally speaking, Support should improve the party such that it's always better to have, but never truly required. This could be changed later down the line, depending on how popular support roles become. If popularity is high on supports, make content that requires them!

TL;DR: BRD would need lower DPS, more utility (like off healing). DPS and Support should be interchangeable, but a combination of the two should always be optimal.

[Assirra]

I honestly don't see this happening before they change the groups from 4/8 to at least 5/10. Bufs are nice but when you are left with only 1dps it kinda breaks the current game.
Now if they added the dynamic of 1tank/1healer/1support/2dps then we can start talking about what the support actually does.

[Galaxia]

no support jobs please
nothing that involves ffxi, this OP is having a ffxi nostalgia

also new jobs
like time mage

[Morticous]

no support jobs please
nothing that involves ffxi, this OP is having a ffxi nostalgia

also new jobs
like time mage

Something tells me that you think when i said support jobs i meant War/Mnk... If you read the post you would have seen that i was talking about support type classes that support the party with buffs and such. And just because somebody likes a feature in an older game doesn't make it nostalgia.. It could very well mean its a good thing and would enhance this games playing experience.

[Moheeheeko]

Wouldn't be hard to do, 4 man's become 5 man's with a slot specific to support added. 8 becomes 10, 24 to 30.