Any consensus on most important stats for WHM/SCH?

[DreamWeaver]

As a WHM who is in the SS camp, perhaps I can elaborate:
Point 1 vs SS : Everything is scripted, thus SS is not required, meaning DET is better!!
My Counter vs Point 1 : Everything is scripted yes, but IMHO during LEARNING PROCESS, SS will help more than DET in getting cure off during critical moments when you're still unfamiliar with the fight. Now, after wiping countless times, it's programmed into your brain, everything is muscle memory, lets look at two scenarios, where you pug, and where you play with your static:
Scenario 1: With Pugs, SS is better to prepare to quick heal (by 0.12+- sec faster,better than nth) those dummy DPS/tanks that are unaware of the fight.
Scenario 2: With Static, if your static is good, you can even try joke runs (swim suit bla bla etc), which means, it doesn't matter what you choose, SS or DET, you can pass it easily.

Point 2 vs SS : It takes too much points for SS to be of any worth!!
My counter vs Point 2 : Ditto for DET? IIRC, max DET does not even provide 100 (closer to 50 I think?) extra Cure I heal compared to full SS build.

Point 3 vs SS : You need to stand in place and spam Cure for SS to be of any worth, once you move, all your "saved time" is lost!!
My counter vs Point 3 : Main purpose of having higher SS is not to boost your HPS (only idiots use HPS to plan their builds), having SS is to have a "heal me within the next 0.5 sec or I'll die" Cure go through instead of healing your tank's corpse (Benediction anyone?). But but but scripted fights etc etc....(please see point 1 above).

[Empressia]

MND > DET > CRIT> PIE > SPS

pls aware that SPS hard cap is 10% lower gcd which means 2.25s GCD which means :
1. u have extra heal for whatever RNG screws ur tank for that spiky burst crit damage (RNG is RNG)
2. ur MP is burning real fast (ur a masochist if u dun have BRD)

[DreamWeaver]

There is no hard cap for SS:
As a WHM, when I use Presence of Mind (2x SS), my spell speed becomes (1004)
My Cure Spell has its casting time reduced from 2s -> 1.49s.
I am not sure how much my GCD is reduced, but given that GCD is 2.5s, I am confident that it is below 2s during my PoM buff.

I doubt I have to "extra heal" compared to DET build when DET build heals for 50~100 extra HP compared to SS build.

[Maelwys]

I doubt I have to "extra heal" compared to DET build

Depends on the situation...

A Tank getting hit for ~2200 HP per hit might need 2 cures to completely top them up on a Det/Crit build but 3 on a SS build.
Do they NEED to be completely topped up? Depends on the fight and what's coming next.

Likewise, a Tank getting hit for ~700 HP per hit might need only one cure from either build to top them up, but the SS build would be able to top them up slightly more regularly.
Do they NEED to be topped up more regularly? Depends on how fast the next hit is coming.

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A comparison of a WHM BIS SS build compared to a WHM BIS Crit/Det build is actually quite simple:

(1) BIS Crit/Det build (on my char, Seawolf): 513 MND, 436 Crit, 296 Det
Crit Adjusted Healing = 1152.654 HP recovered per Cure
SS is 391, giving a GCD of 2.450s (normal) or 2.077s under Presence of Mind.

(2) BIS SS build (on my char, Seawolf): 513 MND, 388 Crit, 235 Det
Crit Adjusted Healing = 1109.415 HP recovered per Cure
SS is 509, giving a GCD of 2.337s (normal) or 1.853s under Presence of Mind.


Difference in Raw Healing output per Cure: 3.751% in favour of the Crit/Det.
Difference in Cure Casting Speed: 4.588% in favour of the SS build.

This means that a tank can survive taking slightly heavier spikes of damage with the Det/Crit build (each cure landing heals for more), but they can survive taking slightly faster consecutive hits with the SS build (cures land more regularly).


Time until the SS build gets an extra cast: 21 GCDs (51.45 seconds)

This means that a SS build will become able to heal more average HP over time than a Det/Crit build after just under a minute of uninterrupted casting. Unfortunately due to movement mechanics and few on-GCD WHM spells being instantcast, this will not apply to many endgame situations.

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TL;DR:
+ SS build will be better than the Crit/Det build after 51.45 seconds of continual on-GCD casting
+ SS build will be be able to land On-GCD abilities 0.1124 seconds sooner after casting than the Crit/Det build (also allows slightly faster dodging).
+ Crit/Det build will return an average of 43.239 more HP per cure than the SS build.

Technically there's also a slight edge to the Crit/Det build in terms of MP consumption (curing for slightly more HP slightly less often will eat less MP!)

It should be noted that SCH's mechanics make Crit stacking a VASTLY more straightforward choice; due to the Adloquium/Enhanced Pet Action bonuses, more regular Instantcast heals, and the fact that SCH has much more "proactive" mitigation such as shields/buffs compared to WHM's "reactive" spike healing.

[kukurumei]

Depends on the situation...

A Tank getting hit for ~2200 HP per hit might need 2 cures to completely top them up on a Det/Crit build but 3 on a SS build.
Do they NEED to be completely topped up? Depends on the fight and what's coming next.

Likewise, a Tank getting hit for ~700 HP per hit might need only one cure from either build to top them up, but the SS build would be able to top them up slightly more regularly.
Do they NEED to be topped up more regularly? Depends on how fast the next hit is coming.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A comparison of a WHM BIS SS build compared to a WHM BIS Crit/Det build is actually quite simple:

(1) BIS Crit/Det build (on my char, Seawolf): 513 MND, 436 Crit, 296 Det
Crit Adjusted Healing = 1152.654 HP recovered per Cure
SS is 391, giving a GCD of 2.450s (normal) or 2.077s under Presence of Mind.

(2) BIS SS build (on my char, Seawolf): 513 MND, 388 Crit, 235 Det
Crit Adjusted Healing = 1109.415 HP recovered per Cure
SS is 509, giving a GCD of 2.337s (normal) or 1.853s under Presence of Mind.


Difference in Raw Healing output per Cure: 3.751% in favour of the Crit/Det.
Difference in Cure Casting Speed: 4.588% in favour of the SS build.

This means that a tank can survive taking slightly heavier spikes of damage with the Det/Crit build (each cure landing heals for more), but they can survive taking slightly faster consecutive hits with the SS build (cures land more regularly).


Time until the SS build gets an extra cast: 21 GCDs (51.45 seconds)

This means that a SS build will become able to heal more average HP over time than a Det/Crit build after just under a minute of uninterrupted casting. Unfortunately due to movement mechanics and few on-GCD WHM spells being instantcast, this will not apply to many endgame situations.

- - - - - - - - - -

TL;DR:
+ SS build will be better than the Crit/Det build after 51.45 seconds of continual on-GCD casting
+ SS build will be be able to land On-GCD abilities 0.1124 seconds sooner after casting than the Crit/Det build (also allows slightly faster dodging).
+ Crit/Det build will return an average of 43.239 more HP per cure than the SS build.

Technically there's also a slight edge to the Crit/Det build in terms of MP consumption (curing for slightly more HP slightly less often will eat less MP!)

It should be noted that SCH's mechanics make Crit stacking a VASTLY more straightforward choice; due to the Adloquium/Enhanced Pet Action bonuses, more regular Instantcast heals, and the fact that SCH has much more "proactive" mitigation such as shields/buffs compared to WHM's "reactive" spike healing.

Well the crit bonus is pretty minor, and vastly unattainable other then an epeen, since critting when you need it to crit is pretty rare. Crit is more for succor where you are rngX8 as a sch which vastly improves the crit stat.

And it really depends on the precast timeline of a Whm. In that does SS make a difference in that even if a whm tries to pre-cast cure2, does the SS make/break the pre-cast.

If a whm can transition from one cure (medica 2 say on fireball) to cure2 precast (of say the DS landing). Then SS is more or less pointless.

But the argument has been that over curing is just going to at best do nothing and at worse kill the whm, then might as well get SS where the most advantage lies.

If you a whm DS, crit a war with cure 2, on top of a det build, you may get like 3.5k off of that. That's a shit load megaton of overcure there and potential turn and get their head bitten off.

[Maelwys]

If you a whm DS, crit a war with cure 2, on top of a det build, you may get like 3.5k off of that. That's a shit load megaton of overcure there and potential turn and get their head bitten off.

You can make exactly the same enmity argument about SS builds, because under optimal conditions they'll be healing for roughly the same amount over time as the Crit/Det builds.

The problem with the overhealing enmity argument is that it doesn't really apply anymore since patch 2.1; unless either the healer or the tank is very, very bad.

Cure II is 650 potency. A Crit Cure II is 975 Potency.

Healing pulls half the enmity of damage. In terms of raw enmity potency; a Paladin or a Warrior can counteract that with a single, uncomboed Butcher's Block or Rage of Halone; both of which grant 100*5=500 enmity, whilst NOT EVEN IN THEIR TANKING STANCE. The only time a Crit Cure II should pull major hate is less than 5 seconds into a fight... and really, the Healer should know better than to use Cure II so early. 3.5k worth of healing translates to a RoH/BB hit of less than 200 damage for a Tank in their +Enmity stance. These days a decent Tank can hold hate even over sustained Medica spam.

Again, the main difference between the builds boils down to more healing per cure or less time between cures. Neither build will be operating optimally all the time: sometimes you'll be forced to overheal, sometimes you'll be forced to wait longer between casts.

[Tinks]

While I commend your attitude and awareness that it's your play style that can accommodate a SS WHM, I feel the need to interject and ask.... why?

We can all voice countless scenarios where this stat or that stat looms biggest for better WHM play, but wouldn't static play of the toon itself dictate the higher outcome? Increased regen, medica II's and medica from which we're known for are just the very few examples of reliance healing. Why don't SCH's follow this logic to stack SS too?

I don't think giving the reason that "quicker heals makes better WHM" holds any worthwhile ground, especially since this reasoning holds hands with the excuse "because of derps and twerps, I must build for mistakes". That's backwards planning, not forward thinking.

I'll be the first to say that yes, my build is specifically for the derp moments. I spend a lot of time PUGing EX primals for farm, fun and helping out; there's a whole lot of derping going on. Maybe it depends on what you spend your time in game doing, and who you do it with. I spend about 2 hours with my static a week, and I spend about 15-20 hours a week playing. If I only played with a static, I might build DET too.

I'm also not saying I'm going to be on the spell speed wagon for eternity either. Its going to depend entirely how both DET and SS scale. For now, in my opinion, a pure DET build doesn't create a big enough boost to make it significantly better than any other build. Fourty-some HP on a Cure isn't more desirable to me than being able to run halfway through Medica cast and watch it go off anyway. At the point that these two stats start giving more appreciable differences, I'll re-evaluate and build from there.