The Market needs a listing fee or it'll never be a balanced and fair economy

[therpgfanatic]

Square-Enix, Yoshi-P and the other developers.

FF XIV's player economy is missing one of the most crucial elements that makes an auction-house based player economy stable; listing fees.

Without a list fee, players who are able to camp out the boards for 8+ hours a day are able to price gouge and monopolize the price of goods, making it impossible for any casual player to sell their wares for reasonable rates.

I don't want to single anyone out as doing something "wrong", because I believe they are entitled to game the system you designed for profits. But this isn't allowing other players to participate in the economy to raise money. That causes frustration, which means they are less likely to stick with the game.

A small number of players intentionally crashing markets to then buy up all the items and relist them at a much higher rate is not an imaginary thing. Players will outright admit this is what they are doing.

From the first page of this thread:

Hi, I'm one of those undercutters. The gist of it is this:


The more detailed response is that (note that these are my motives and not necessarily the same as everyone else who undercuts) I've already established my markets. I have absolutely nothing to lose. People entering my markets are deemed "nuisances," especially so since the vast majority of them are looking to make some quick gil for housing and whatnot. As such, most people don't have the time, patience, or initial capital to constantly get undercut, so they leave. I effectively force people to look elsewhere by crashing my own markets when they enter and then resume monopolising when they leave. If they persist, then prices remain low and both parties lose out. Dirty, but effective.

I have also done some experiments with items being sold at 1 gil. I've boughten them all up and then re-listed them at 50 gil each, and sure enough I sold all the stacks. But within 1 day that good was selling at 1 gil again. I dont know if it's bots or what, but it seems the market is endlessly getting crashed.

I have a level 50 Miner. Pretty much everything I mine is generally worthless at any given time of day, as there are people selling cobalt ore at 1-10 gil per 99 stack. This is true for a lot of the minable items on my server and it seems true for a lot of other gathering crafts, too.

Heck, even crafting materials items you can buy from NPCs, people are selling them for 1 gil.

You need to stop the ability for a small number of highly active players to camp the marketboards and continually undercut other more casual players. Simply adding a list price where the player must pay 5% of the rate just to list the item on the market board will address this issue. Players will no longer camp the boards and constantly undercut each other, or sell items for 1 gil. This is because they will end up not making any money at all.

[Nicobo]

I don't object the suggestion, but it is predictable that those "small number of highly active players to camp the marketboards" would still undercut everyone or list another stock right after you, and now the "more casual players" would lost 5% if they adjust the price...

[Zourin]

They just as well be bots. Or at the very least bear the intellectual capacity of a 20th century Roomba, since they can easily get 1 gil or more just by vendorizing the items in the first place.

[therpgfanatic]

I don't object the suggestion, but it is predictable that those "small number of highly active players to camp the marketboards" would still undercut everyone or list another stock right after you, and now the "more casual players" would lost 5% if they adjust the price...

I don't think it'd rip off casuals.

The undercutting is largely done by the same small group of players, not everyone. It's easy to see because their retainer names are shown. They pick some good to try to manipulate the market with, and focus on it.

Let's say you're trying to sell a 99 stack of an item at 100 gil each. That's 9,900 gil total, so you have to pay 495 gil to list it.

Then someone else puts another stack up at 1 gil less. So you decide to try to relist your price and undercut by 1 gil less, too. You have to pay another listing fee of 5% of 9,898, which is 494.

If you guys keep trying to undercut one another, you're gonna end up spending more gil listing the darn thing than what you're trying to sell it for. You quickly realize that, so you stop undercutting and the market prices stabilize around values based on demand for the item and/or (in the case of crafting goods) what the item can be used to make that will sell at a higher rate.

With fee listings, players learn the best way to sell their items is at a similar cost as other players. They are no longer able to constantly undercut to get a quicker sale.

This is why listing fees exist in any MMO with an auction house system. Except FF XIV, apparently.

The point isn't to get rid of undercutting, but to get rid of the intentional market crashing that people are trying to do by relisting goods over and over again until they irritate the person and/or get them to list the good low enough the monopolizer buys the items up and then relists them at a high price. The monopolizer can no longer do that because it costs them too much gil to play that market crashing game.

They just as well be bots. Or at the very least bear the intellectual capacity of a 20th century Roomba, since they can easily get 1 gil or more just by vendorizing the items in the first place.

Yeah there's been some occasions I bought the items and vendored them myself. But the time spent with the window constantly opening and re-opening compared to the profit made from vendoring isnt very good.

[Zourin]

it would make the issue of artificial price ceilings more difficult to cope with. Those people that dump multiple stacks of items at 'discount' prices, which results in a major downshift in pricing until demand eventually chews through it all.

Normally, if you were sure that it would be a long while before the market self-corrected, the only thing you could do was remark and 1gil him or repost in smaller quantities than he's offering.

[Rein-Yagami]

I'm sorry, but if "Item X" isn't selling, then move on to "Item Y"~ followed by "Item Z"

over the course of the previous week, HQ vintage Kite Shields have gone from 10-12k to....3.9k~ Why?

Because people have realised that the dungeon that drops the scarred kite shield also drops salable dungeon gear which the chest pieces are selling for between 27k-59k depending on which you get~

I'm not bitter about it~ I still farm the dungeon because it's a somewhat enjoyable dungeon (properly allows healers to dps without paying much attention to hp until after the first boss). I however have moved on to spiritbonding gathering accessories. Raptorskin Choker, Electrum earrings, Militia Braclets and 2 Aetheryte rings(for spiritbond gain) cost less than 15k in total. the materia you gain from the 5 items can easily sell for over 100k

No listing fee please~

[Kyrosiris]

I hear if you spam Rage of Halorne on the market board, your auctions don't get undercut.

[Lemon8or]

You need to stop the ability for a small number of highly active players to camp the marketboards and continually undercut other more casual players.

It's like you want someone with more play time than you to not progress faster than you. :/ Geeze, where does the entitlement stop. Even with the listing fee, it would not solve anything.

[Orophin]

It's like you want someone with more play time than you to not progress faster than you. :/ Geeze, where does the entitlement stop. Even with the listing fee, it would not solve anything.

I think with a listing/relisting fee people would be far less likely to undercut you by only 1 gil.

[therpgfanatic]

I'm sorry, but if "Item X" isn't selling, then move on to "Item Y"~ followed by "Item Z"

Each server has about 18,000 to 23,000 players. And we all have 2 Retainers who can sell multiple items.

The idea that if one item isn't selling you can simply go sell a different item just doesn't work. Other than extremely rare drops like treasure map minions and high-level crafting gear / materia, most items I've seen are sold for less than 100 gil. A lot of stuff is actually being listed for 1-10 gil.

And it isn't that there isn't demand. You can list items that are needed for leve-quest turn ins, and people will still list the items for barely nothing. It's because a select few players camp the boards all day relisting their wares to undercut other people to purposely crash the markets. They drive the prices down to as low as possible, then try to buy up each other's items and relist them at a march higher rate. It can work but when a bunch of people are doing it, it really just means the prices constantly crash.

it would make the issue of artificial price ceilings more difficult to cope with. Those people that dump multiple stacks of items at 'discount' prices, which results in a major downshift in pricing until demand eventually chews through it all.

Normally, if you were sure that it would be a long while before the market self-corrected, the only thing you could do was remark and 1gil him or repost in smaller quantities than he's offering.

Not true.

In a market board with a listing fee, if someone lists their wares at a huge markdown from the normal cost of the item, someone who plays the market is going to buy the items up and then relist them at the true average market price to turn a profit.

That's how auction houses in other MMOs correct themselves. But it doesn't happen here because there's no penalty to just keep changing your prices.