Rank cap increase every 1-2 years discussion thread

[Physic]

In vertical, things are better for sake of beign better. Bigger number, bigger something and bigger e-peen.
In Horizontal progression things are better because they behave better, have characteristic that other things don't have or do some things much better than other things (in other word they are much more specialized and focused on single thing).

The above is something that Inside said and I think it deserves not to be drowned out Duelle clearly does not understand the difference here as he believes that it's the same.

I'll break it down. In vertical progression the new gear is better because instead of having 10 strength it has 14 the only reason you wanted the old gear is for the 10 strength and then the only reason you'll want the new gear is for the 14 strength. The only reason the mob is stronger is because SE (some celestial being of eorzea) came in and magically made new things in the world twice as strong as everything else.

In horizontal progression the gear is better because it has 10 more evasion and our tank is absent (time to show my pgl stuff) still other gear is better as it has strength, yet another piece is valuable because it enables me to use abilities faster.

You don't need macro swaps for this I already do it in XIV (that's right i have 3 pieces of gear about per slot per class) so no this is not about macro swapping gear at all. You don't get this kind of development with vertical progression because your options are diminished you don't get to choose between 6 varying pieces of gear your choices are narrow to one or two pieces and they are not very flexible pieces either.

the game currently has, as you say, multiple options for different stats. there is nothing to stop them from making multiple gear options based on the level cap, they already do and have done that. You can still make situational gear with level cap increases, and if you do what I and some others have suggested, it even works into the design, by having upgradeable special gears.

Say for example you have the new hax drop from the level 50 capped dungeon:
Monks burning hand. Its a rare skin of weapon that actually puts a tattoo on your hands and arm in the shape of fire.
stats
141 attack
160 accuracy
180 crit rate
160 parrying
+3 evasion +3 dex

looks like best weapon in game, even though its parry is low, but then again its probably not better than a +3 hade hora for everything. (jade +3 will have higher attack and comparable ACC most likely with more parrying, but much lower crit rate no dex and no evasion bonus)

boom cap raises, and new dungeon/content adds a new level 59 knuckle.

Iron Fists looks like a metal arm sheath with some mechanical tech accents

stats

170 attack
160 acc
175 crit rate
190 parrying
+4 vit +4 str
new best in game right?
yeah but you can upgrade burning fists if get 2 more items one from finding and defeating the new hidden monster in a the new dungeon, and the other by turning in grand company points to the new NPC in the new far off area, that you have to beat the new story mission to get to, and allowing a level 55 crafter to combine them for you.
the new stats are weaker attack wise than the new weapon, but favor it in ACC and parry


the point is you can create new content, and horizontal gear choices while also increasing the cap. in fact with upgrade systems, i would by and large tend to make the upgrades generally horizontal. This will keep old content usuable, but not required, give new things to aim for, while at the same time progressing the game. I WANT new reasons to play the class i like the most, i want to get new and interesting looking gears, and get new skills. There is not as much fun in being at cap forever, with content designed to take insane amount of time to achieve anything.

Another thing to note is in this game, monsters have tiers, and learn new skills, and have advanced abilities as you get higher, any human type will have more skills at its disposal when you get higher. Cockatrices get an AoE that does multiple status effects and petrification, high level sheeps got sleep snot bubbles. Monsters so far, in this game, actually do get tougher, with more skill as you level, not just higher HP and the ability to do more damage. Also with the different SP for species types, they add more difficult species in the same level ranges that give more sp, and are worth it if your team has a lot of power.
While they could do some of these things without a cap raise, just the fact that you arent getting sp while doing most of it, would make people do it on their other jobs, and on different classes, and many would rarely get to play the classes they enjoy. For most people in ffxi, once you got a job to max merit, and exp, you rarely got to play it.

[AuctionGirl]

In horizontal progression, you eventually outgrow the same content, but only in the fact that it now becomes too easy to do, and you are "crying over losing" your existing items you obtained.

Lets think about Horizontal Progression - FOR THE AVERAGE USER - Not myself, not yourself, because the average person gets bored of a game that offers nothing new/growth in their eyes.

Using FFXI as reference...
You obtain Emperors Hairpin +10 stats, you keep it for awhile, soon they release Emperors Hairpin2 (would be different name used for sake of arguement) which is +12 stats because you need new stuff to try to get in the game. Then a year later they release Emperors Hairpin3 with +15 stats... now you go into these old dungeons and you are soon a god to the content make it not a challenge anymore. You have negated that content, unless your someone who just likes to show off your best stuff.

Growing this game ONLY vertically would be a bad thing, and ONLY horizontally worse, but growing this at a constant speed vertically and horizontally, kinda like a pyramid, will only make the game better.

Part of the reason you are getting upset about Horizontal Progression vs Vertical Progression is you are looking at every CAP RANKED thing as End Game. You need to understand that there should NEVER BE END GAME! If you never end the new stuff, you never have to worry about only doing horizontal progression. Once you stick at a cap for a long time, you create only horizontal progression from that point forward.

I myself played WoW also, and that was far worse than FFXI, it took me 3-4 months to cap characters and after doing so many of the same raids, I found myself in the bored boat much quicker.

Look at FFXIV and how there were a lot more players in the beginning and soon once they realized that there was no content to do, AT ANY RANK, they quickly went and played other games. Only so many times you can repeat the same content for the average person. Of course there are exceptions to every rule and that is why FFXI still has subscribers. But look at WoW only in the aspect that they release new content, new stuff to obtain, new things every so often and that keeps more subscriptions glued to the game.

How you change the previous content when a new cap raise comes in (You are required to do rank cap dungeons/level sync, etc) OR else you fail like WoW in negating all previous content. If you keep the old dungeons still a challenge regardless of rank, you don't negate it. When you keep drops in those dungeons that are required to upgrade the newer ranked weapons, then you don't negate it. When you release content that just forgets about the past (WoW) then you better have 100 times more new content or you will fail. In the end, re-playability is a different number for each person, for you it might be 1000 times, for me it might be 50-100 times. Think about the health of the game and not just yourself, keeping more players in the game, gives more challenges, gives SE more money to create more content and in the end it creates and overall better game. Vertical Progression is a must, Vertical + Negating old content != Must.

[Brotech]

Again, I am NOT for horizontal progression in this game.
And I apologize for the format, I had to do it that way to keep it under 10000 characters, so it would actually let me post it.

Now;
I'm going to use the example from the Physic's post.

Monks burning hand. Its a rare skin of weapon that actually puts a tattoo on your hands and arm in the shape of fire.
stats
141 attack
160 accuracy
180 crit rate
160 parrying
+3 evasion +3 dex

Ok so thats the best in the game, What you do to keep horizontal progression working and valid with new items is NOT the following.
"Iron Fists looks like a metal arm sheath with some mechanical tech accents

stats

170 attack
160 acc
175 crit rate
190 parrying
+4 vit +4 str"
You don't ever ever ever ever do this.
Especially if you don't want to invalidate the items from before. What you do to make side grades is make weapons like the 3 or 4 below.

120 attack
160 accuracy
180 crit rate
200 parrying
+4 evasion +1 dex

131 attack
170 accuracy
150 crit rate
120 parrying
+2 str +2 vit

190 attack
150 accuracy
170 crit rate
110 parrying
+4 str

None of those is clearly the best, but each is viable for different features, someone wants to be straight up dd, take the last, want to be high eva tank pick another, none of them overpowers the original, nor does any of them become instantly useless.
Poor planning and bad game design prevents horizontal progress.

And as per the comment there should never be "End game" well that's just ludicrous. You cannot feasibly design a game with no end. You can create open endings, and closed endings, but there will always be an end point.

And again for clarification because I don't think Auction Girl actually reads anyone elses posts.

I DO NOT WANT HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION FOR THIS GAME. I AM PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE. HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION WILL NOT WORK FOR THIS GAME IN ITS CURRENT STATE IN MY OPINION.

[Physic]

Again, I am NOT for horizontal progression in this game.
And I apologize for the format, I had to do it that way to keep it under 10000 characters, so it would actually let me post it.

Now;
I'm going to use the example from the Physic's post.

Monks burning hand. Its a rare skin of weapon that actually puts a tattoo on your hands and arm in the shape of fire.
stats
141 attack
160 accuracy
180 crit rate
160 parrying
+3 evasion +3 dex

Ok so thats the best in the game, What you do to keep horizontal progression working and valid with new items is NOT the following.
"Iron Fists looks like a metal arm sheath with some mechanical tech accents

stats

170 attack
160 acc
175 crit rate
190 parrying
+4 vit +4 str"
You don't ever ever ever ever do this.
Especially if you don't want to invalidate the items from before. What you do to make side grades is make weapons like the 3 or 4 below.

120 attack
160 accuracy
180 crit rate
200 parrying
+4 evasion +1 dex

131 attack
170 accuracy
150 crit rate
120 parrying
+2 str +2 vit

190 attack
150 accuracy
170 crit rate
110 parrying
+4 str

None of those is clearly the best, but each is viable for different features, someone wants to be straight up dd, take the last, want to be high eva tank pick another, none of them overpowers the original, nor does any of them become instantly useless.
Poor planning and bad game design prevents horizontal progress.

And as per the comment there should never be "End game" well that's just ludicrous. You cannot feasibly design a game with no end. You can create open endings, and closed endings, but there will always be an end point.

And again for clarification because I don't think Auction Girl actually reads anyone elses posts.

I DO NOT WANT HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION FOR THIS GAME. I AM PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE. HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION WILL NOT WORK FOR THIS GAME IN ITS CURRENT STATE IN MY OPINION.

what im saying in my post is that you still have horizontal weapons with vertical development, and when you make the new gear you make a new version of the weapon that is higher level, and has different stats, but uses the old one.

Yes it makes your old gear obsolete, but it gives you a way to upgrade that obsolete gear, for less effort than getting the all new fancy one. In this respect, your gear progress, and though it is obsolete, it is not a waste.
When you compare the upgraded weapon with the new special drop, you see that they have different bonuses. the new drop is not exactly better.

The key here, is you dont destroy the old content, you make it a stepping stone. People who like collecting and horizontal progression will get both, some will get one just for the skin, and make it better because they like it. Some will genuinely prefer certain stats over others.

Its basically like in 13 where they had like 10 weapons all gotten at various levels, all worthwhile for certain playstyles/roles endgame. the highest tiered ones needed the least upgrading, but when upgraded, all had a different stat spread. You only need to do this for extremely special gear, some gear is designed to have a shelf life.

[Starlord]

1 year- 5 rank increase
2 years- 10 rank increase

6 years later...

Outcome- 30 Ranks/Levels which Equate to Rank/level 80 in 6 years

It took FFXI about that much time before they increased it to level 99 >.> lmao

so really when you look at this.. if they do it like what I described I don't see a problem.. but then again its my opinion so =)

[AuctionGirl]

For your information I read all of your posts, and I feel like you aren't understanding mine from a business standpoint. I could care less if I get everything I want, I want the game to grow, and enjoy the parts of the game I like. Without players its harder to enjoy those parts. I'm glad a lot of you are on board with the vertical progression, because horizontal will kill off the game quicker than vertical will.

Trying to do too much horizontal with each new cap increase will lead to a failure too, its best if they keep a tight strict schedule, like 6 months, since true hardcores will finish most of that in 2-3 months, and the average/casuals will complete it 6-12 months. Hardcores tend to be able to grind the same content more times before they are bored with it, but average/casual players want to repeat those contents as little as often, and if they never run out of new content to do/grind/attain, then they will be longer subscribers.

Brotech: I agree with your options to the weapons, imagine if every 6 months, with the 5 rank increase there was 4 new weapons all kinda like the ones you choose, so you don't only have 1 new weapon to get, but 4 new weapons if you want options. If you only increase it 5 ranks every 6 months, it gives hardcore/average/casual players all the chance to get their classes up those 5 ranks, hardcores will do more classes, but casuals can still enjoy the classes they want and keep them up to do the new "end game" I mean "Current Cap" content. When you consider something end game, you are considering you are finishing the game. This is all in how you perceive this, and if you know in 6 months there will be NEW stuff, then its really not end game right? Its just current capped stuff. Like these rank 50 NM's they arent end game, the dodore doublet is not end game crafting, its only current cap best stuff. You should always expect to grow in the game vertically. Horizontally is just as important, but too wide horizontally and you kill a game making it boring to more players.

[CrstyCaptin]

Hate the rank increase idea myself. I liked XI because the cap was 75 for years. I don't want a need to level again every expansion and to have previous gear outdated by the new stuff. If I did I'd play WoW. Carrying merits over to increase stats or other things including new abilities would be great. Really would like some feed back on this regarding if they'll go through with it. Personally, this is a deal breaker and I'll leave XIV now if they plan on being a WoW clone.

[AuctionGirl]

There are many reasons why someone would want to play an MMO. Below are some of the reasons...

1) To be the best of XYZ class on your server/game.
2) To have the best possible weapons/armor
3) To be the best crafter in the game
4) To be the best gatherer in the game
5) To play with friends in a team environment
6) To make new friends and help them
7) To grind, because you love to grind
8) To challenge yourself with figuring out new strategies
9) To try to do things others cant
10) To enjoy the detail that was put into the game
11) To max all your classes to the highest ranks
12) To obtain every skill/spell possible
13) To create your own strategies on how to beat things
14) To show off your e-peen
15) To achieve your next goals in character progression
16) To be able to make your own stuff (self sustainable)

I'm sure there are plenty more I left off and chances are you will have more than 1 of those in the reasons why you play an MMO.

With ONLY Horizontal Progression, you soon limit the amount of players types you are targeting.

With BOTH Horizontal & Vertical Progression, you have the ability to target every player type in the game.

If the vertical progression is too slow, you will lose players. So making sure vertical progression keeps at a constant, and horizontal progression fills in the blanks. This will lead to the most successful game.

You have to be careful with implementation of the new content to be able to reuse some of the old, as to keep it all important. This gives new players things to do, along with old players helping the new players or just doing it cause it was fun.

[Duelle]

With ONLY Horizontal Progression, you soon limit the amount of players types you are targeting.

With BOTH Horizontal & Vertical Progression, you have the ability to target every player type in the game.

If the vertical progression is too slow, you will lose players. So making sure vertical progression keeps at a constant, and horizontal progression fills in the blanks. This will lead to the most successful game.

You have to be careful with implementation of the new content to be able to reuse some of the old, as to keep it all important. This gives new players things to do, along with old players helping the new players or just doing it cause it was fun.

I'm willing to go down this route, if need be. What I don't want is a repeat of the cap being the same for several years.

Something else I see here is "I don't want to level again". I don't see much of a problem with it, unless you're looking at leveling from a PoV where you expect leveling to be grind parties and only grind parties. In such a context, leveling is obviously going to be only slightly more interesting than watching paint dry.

[AuctionGirl]

Rank increases != WoW Clone

If you are smart about the rank increases then its overall better (huge increases are bad, keep em small like 5 ranks at a time), as explained before WoW Destroys all previous content, keep rank caps on the older content + changing drops within it, will keep old content as good as new content while allowing for progression and advancement of characters.