Rank cap increase every 1-2 years discussion thread

[Duelle]

I really dislike MMOs that constantly raise the level cap, simply because it makes it seem like all the effort that we put into getting our previous gear is worthless, because the new Level 60 body is WAY better then the level 50 body that I spent 6 months trying to get. I'm not saying that the new, higher level gear always comparable to the old gear; In my opinion, a level 60 body SHOULD be better then a level 50 body. However, constantly making gear that was coveted become essentially useless, and thinking that a level cap raise is necessary for the growth of an MMO is not something that I agree with.

I disagree with your entire premise, but this part of your post bothered me a bit. As someone who has done the gear grind several times in those "MMOs that raise the level cap", I can tell you that for every person who cried about their phat lootz becoming collectors' items, you also had people who simply shrugged their shoulders and got back into the grind because they wanted to see the content.

Raising the level cap means that you have more opportunities to not only add content and add gear, but also further develop the way your character classes play, or as companies like Blizzard have demonstrated, make really big changes to classes at a core level that would otherwise not be possible.

From a gear and itemization perspectives, the lv75 cap in XI being in place for so many years gave us a lousy selection of sidegrades that had to be as such as to do exactly what you wanted; not obsolete older content. Problem is, i'd rather just increase the power of the players over just sticking them with lousy sidegrades for several years. It detracts from the proverbial carrot on a stick that gear is supposed to be when in context of MMORPGs.

That there should be content in the game that lasts a decent amount of time, sure. That they decide to not increase the level cap is folly and detrimental to more than just the content it risks making obsolete.

[Wolfie]

I disagree with your entire premise, but this part of your post bothered me a bit. As someone who has done the gear grind several times in those "MMOs that raise the level cap", I can tell you that for every person who cried about their phat lootz becoming collectors' items, you also had people who simply shrugged their shoulders and got back into the grind because they wanted to see the content.

Raising the level cap means that you have more opportunities to not only add content and add gear, but also further develop the way your character classes play, or as companies like Blizzard have demonstrated, make really big changes to classes at a core level that would otherwise not be possible.

From a gear and itemization perspectives, the lv75 cap in XI being in place for so many years gave us a lousy selection of sidegrades that had to be as such as to do exactly what you wanted; not obsolete older content. Problem is, i'd rather just increase the power of the players over just sticking them with lousy sidegrades for several years. It detracts from the proverbial carrot on a stick that gear is supposed to be when in context of MMORPGs.

That there should be content in the game that lasts a decent amount of time, sure. That they decide to not increase the level cap is folly and detrimental to more than just the content it risks making obsolete.

Yep.

This is pretty much what drove me to quit FFXI. I realized, one day, that after 3 years of being 75, I was still doing the same content and found myself questioning new content as being worthwhile. I quit shortly after Salvage was released, because I realized that it was simply not worth my time to go there; the opportunity to develop my character was minimal and the effort was too great.

And I feel like I have to explain what you meant by Blizzard making core class changes, because that's a VERY good point to be made in favor of level cap raising.

When Blizzard obsoletes content with a new expansion pack, it makes it very easy to start every class and encounter with a blank slate. Since only an extreme minority will ever be going back to do the old content, they can change class skills and roles around at will and design the new content to fit around these new classes.

If they still had to keep this old content in mind, these balance changes would become almost impossible. It would mean that either the balance changes have to fit the old play styles/end game model, or that they'd have to go back and re-do all of the old content to fit the new class balance changes. It's the reason why you never see dramatic class changes until a new expansion is released.

[Duelle]

And I feel like I have to explain what you meant by Blizzard making core class changes, because that's a VERY good point to be made in favor of level cap raising.

When Blizzard obsoletes content with a new expansion pack, it makes it very easy to start every class and encounter with a blank slate. Since only an extreme minority will ever be going back to do the old content, they can change class skills and roles around at will and design the new content to fit around these new classes.

If they still had to keep this old content in mind, these balance changes would become almost impossible. It would mean that either the balance changes have to fit the old play styles/end game model, or that they'd have to go back and re-do all of the old content to fit the new class balance changes. It's the reason why you never see dramatic class changes until a new expansion is released.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[iniside]

Inreasing level cap, means you have run out of ideas how to expand game.
Vertical Expand, was never and never will be good. GAme should exapnd in Horizontal matter. You should be able to do as many things as possible on single level, and shouldn't be forced to level again and again to do more things.

Raising the level cap means that you have more opportunities to not only add content and add gear, but also further develop the way your character classes play, or as companies like Blizzard have demonstrated, make really big changes to classes at a core level that would otherwise not be possible.

You are entirely wrong. You can expand game in horizontal manner. You can add Alternate Advacnment, Perks, Feats, whatever you imagine. In case of FFXIV you can add more classes (which is best solution to expand game). You can add more dungeons, more content, and everything at single level cap forever. Higher level cap means only you have to hit it again. And again. And again. And then you get bored and quit.
Blizzard is not really good example on how the game shoukld be developed. Those guys have no idea what to do with game since TBC.

- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
----Counter Argument: So they can't add in new recipes?
----- RE: Counter: So lets say they add in some new recipes, but you are capped, so you do the recipe 50 times at most, then bored for however long it takes to add in a new recipe. Or you can increase ranks, add in 100's of recipes and have something to achieve.

You can add more crafting skills, add cross-proffesion recipes, make new recipes required specific materials, that are obtainable ony in new zones. New Recipes cloud need specific perks you have to select. Really exapdning game in horizontal manner have endless possibilites.
If you can't imagine that... Then well.

[AuctionGirl]

You can add more crafting skills, add cross-proffesion recipes, make new recipes required specific materials, that are obtainable ony in new zones. New Recipes cloud need specific perks you have to select. Really exapdning game in horizontal manner have endless possibilites.
If you can't imagine that... Then well.

But that still doesn't resolve the fact that you no longer have people buying shards/crystals/materials to increase abilities, you soon stump the economy because too many crafters at the same ranks making too many products. Soon crafting becomes a gil loss hobby and makes people quit that aspect of the game. Soon they quit because horizontal can only go so far, then you reach limits. You cant keep something new and fresh and not negate older content/items. ONLY Horizontal Progression is death to an MMO. Vertical & Horizontal Progression works, but you will always end up eventually negating old content, its impossible to have NEW stuff that people WANT without negating old stuff.

[_C-a-e-r-i-t-h_]

But that still doesn't resolve the fact that you no longer have people buying shards/crystals/materials to increase abilities, you soon stump the economy because too many crafters at the same ranks making too many products. Soon crafting becomes a gil loss hobby and makes people quit that aspect of the game. Soon they quit because horizontal can only go so far, then you reach limits. You cant keep something new and fresh and not negate older content/items. ONLY Horizontal Progression is death to an MMO. Vertical & Horizontal Progression works, but you will always end up eventually negating old content, its impossible to have NEW stuff that people WANT without negating old stuff.

So find new ways to encourage people to buy shards and crystals. Someone posted in another thread a brilliant suggestion about using crystals as part of durability/repair. I'm sure S-E could think of a few other ways to keep crafting relevant.

[iniside]

But that still doesn't resolve the fact that you no longer have people buying shards/crystals/materials to increase abilities, you soon stump the economy because too many crafters at the same ranks making too many products. Soon crafting becomes a gil loss hobby and makes people quit that aspect of the game. Soon they quit because horizontal can only go so far, then you reach limits. You cant keep something new and fresh and not negate older content/items. ONLY Horizontal Progression is death to an MMO. Vertical & Horizontal Progression works, but you will always end up eventually negating old content, its impossible to have NEW stuff that people WANT without negating old stuff.

Yes. EVE-Online have stumped economy because there is no levels. Heck there is even no new materials every expansion. Now what they did they are just adding new recipes, that are much harder to make, and people must think how to make them.
I cloud stress word THINK.. Here..

[AuctionGirl]

Yes. EVE-Online have stumped economy because there is no levels. Heck there is even no new materials every expansion. Now what they did they are just adding new recipes, that are much harder to make, and people must think how to make them.
I cloud stress word THINK.. Here..

This doesn't solve the fact that having a higher ranked crafting class is basically worthless. Just because you add a new recipe in doesn't resolve the need for progression. So you want your OLD armor/weapons to stay relevant, but want to add in new recipes that doesn't negate those OLD weapons/armors? Why craft them? One way or another you negate older content. Vertical Progression keeps all classes growing, keeps new abilities, new strategies, new things coming.

Horizontal there are limits, and if you are too narrow minded to see this, that is sad.

[Ichi]

Here's a list of things that were relevant to me at one arbitrary point of my time playing ffxi.

-sky
-sea
-limbus
-dynamis
-salvage
-nyzul
-znm
-big 3
-einherjar
-many other world nms
-storyline
-campaign

that's 12 things having to do with nm raiding in a group, these things were all useful to me simultaneously and continuously having 3~6 classes just because I already have a body armor doesn't mean I wouldn't do better lullabys in another body armor or be a better tank in a certain set up etc. Idk if you can but I cannot think of another mmo with more than 10 different type of raid oriented loot seeking events continuously in use for such a period and I have played a bit.

[Physic]

Inreasing level cap, means you have run out of ideas how to expand game.
Vertical Expand, was never and never will be good. GAme should exapnd in Horizontal matter. You should be able to do as many things as possible on single level, and shouldn't be forced to level again and again to do more things.


You are entirely wrong. You can expand game in horizontal manner. You can add Alternate Advacnment, Perks, Feats, whatever you imagine. In case of FFXIV you can add more classes (which is best solution to expand game). You can add more dungeons, more content, and everything at single level cap forever. Higher level cap means only you have to hit it again. And again. And again. And then you get bored and quit.
Blizzard is not really good example on how the game shoukld be developed. Those guys have no idea what to do with game since TBC.

You can add more crafting skills, add cross-proffesion recipes, make new recipes required specific materials, that are obtainable ony in new zones. New Recipes cloud need specific perks you have to select. Really exapdning game in horizontal manner have endless possibilites.
If you can't imagine that... Then well.

some people just dont want to increase in level, if you could increase in level without grinding exp, say it was event based, would you still think its a bad idea?