Rank cap increase every 1-2 years discussion thread

[Kiara]

Hi AuctionGirl,

Huh? Did you even read my post?

When did I say I want to "repeat the same content"?

You are clearly excited about always getting New Gear - "getting the best armor/weapons" - and if you enjoy getting "the best" every 6 months, that's your opinion, but I strongly disagree with that pace.

The numerous examples I provided would be something SE could pace and release every 3 months if they wanted to. Fast enough for you?

I just believe there is New Content that caters to different segments of the gaming populace that can be done without making the best gear obsolete.

And as I said in my first post, I'm in favor of Level Cap Increases; it's just how it's handled, and I provided ideas for interesting New Content that *doesn't* require Level Cap Increases (or it can be tied to the increase as well).

[AuctionGirl]

Hi AuctionGirl,

Huh? Did you even read my post?

When did I say I want to "repeat the same content"?

You are clearly excited about always getting New Gear - "getting the best armor/weapons" - and if you enjoy getting "the best" every 6 months, that's your opinion, but I strongly disagree with that pace.

The numerous examples I provided would be something SE could pace and release every 3 months if they wanted to. Fast enough for you?

I just believe there is New Content that caters to different segments of the gaming populace that can be done without making the best gear obsolete.

And as I said in my first post, I'm in favor of Level Cap Increases; it's just how it's handled, and I provided ideas for interesting New Content that *doesn't* require Level Cap Increases (or it can be tied to the increase as well).

Kiara I am happy you are in favor of rank increases, they are a must though, and have to happen as fast or faster than new content lasts in the game. New Recipes, New Content, New Armors/Weapons, New everything every so often, just makes something better. Same Recipes, New Content, Old Armors/Weapons, only fulfills 1/3 of what can and should be done often. If you keep people thinking about finding new recipes, new armors/weapons and more... you have increased the amount of content in the game 10x more than just adding a couple new armors/weapons and maybe a couple dungeons.

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Negatives: Possibly Weapons/Armors you don't need/want
- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
- Old Gathering Locations/Items
--- Negatives: Same boring gathering, nothing new, why gather anymore?
- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Negatives: Could be fun, and could be a complete waste of time, with no drops that you need/want
- New Maps/Areas
--- Negatives: Even though its a new map, you cant use repeatable mobs anymore without them feeling like the existing mobs. You negate the ability to re-use mobs and increase ranks/give new skills to.
- Old Skills
--- Negatives: You occasionally might get new skills, but you are limited in what you really can add since fixed rank

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Positives: The new Weapons and armor will be better than the existing, and there will be something to achieve
- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Positives: New Stuff for crafters to do, New Items in the market place and New Skills to achieve
- New Gathering Locations/Items
--- Positives: Keeps gatherers in business, keeps crafters supplied, gives new skills to achieve
- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Positives: Gives players something to strive for, those few new ranks that allow them into the new content and can introduce new and harder challenges
- New Maps/Areas
--- Positives: You can simply do more things with more maps/areas, more quests easier, new cool challenges can be made on those new maps and they don't feel like of its another Rank 80-90 mobs area...
- New Skills
--- Positives: Developers can get more creative and they can simply make new ones more powerful giving more things to strive for

Really no choice, if you want the game to last a long time, it has to grow in every aspect, not just horizontal, but vertically also.

[Sol_Aureus]

Kiara I am happy you are in favor of rank increases, they are a must though, and have to happen as fast or faster than new content lasts in the game. New Recipes, New Content, New Armors/Weapons, New everything every so often, just makes something better. Same Recipes, New Content, Old Armors/Weapons, only fulfills 1/3 of what can and should be done often. If you keep people thinking about finding new recipes, new armors/weapons and more... you have increased the amount of content in the game 10x more than just adding a couple new armors/weapons and maybe a couple dungeons.

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Negatives: Possibly Weapons/Armors you don't need/want
- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
- Old Gathering Locations/Items
--- Negatives: Same boring gathering, nothing new, why gather anymore?
- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Negatives: Could be fun, and could be a complete waste of time, with no drops that you need/want
- New Maps/Areas
--- Negatives: Even though its a new map, you cant use repeatable mobs anymore without them feeling like the existing mobs. You negate the ability to re-use mobs and increase ranks/give new skills to.
- Old Skills
--- Negatives: You occasionally might get new skills, but you are limited in what you really can add since fixed rank

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Positives: The new Weapons and armor will be better than the existing, and there will be something to achieve
- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Positives: New Stuff for crafters to do, New Items in the market place and New Skills to achieve
- New Gathering Locations/Items
--- Positives: Keeps gatherers in business, keeps crafters supplied, gives new skills to achieve
- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Positives: Gives players something to strive for, those few new ranks that allow them into the new content and can introduce new and harder challenges
- New Maps/Areas
--- Positives: You can simply do more things with more maps/areas, more quests easier, new cool challenges can be made on those new maps and they don't feel like of its another Rank 80-90 mobs area...
- New Skills
--- Positives: Developers can get more creative and they can simply make new ones more powerful giving more things to strive for

Really no choice, if you want the game to last a long time, it has to grow in every aspect, not just horizontal, but vertically also.

While you make some valid points, saying that vertical progression is nessesary for an MMO to be fun and successful without preceding or following that statement with "in my opinion" seems like you're trying to pass it off as a fact, which is very closed-minded. FFXI proves that vertical progression is NOT necessary to make an MMO fun and successful, otherwise it wouldn't have survived during the 7 years that I played and the cap stayed 75.

[Physic]

While you make some valid points, saying that vertical progression is nessesary for an MMO to be fun and successful without preceding or following that statement with "in my opinion" seems like you're trying to pass it off as a fact, which is very closed-minded. FFXI proves that vertical progression is NOT necessary to make an MMO fun and successful, otherwise it wouldn't have survived during the 7 years that I played and the cap stayed 75.

im honestly guessing if you played ffxi for a long time, you probably started to relevel many classes. Its natural that leveling a new class is generally more fun than endgame, because endgame progression is fairly limited. its only something you can usually do once in awhile and it doesnt need you to play the class you enjoy. Wow you had no choice but to do the endgame as the class that wanted the item. (i think based on what i heard) but here its a little different.
Many high level classes became farmer only, or completely retired.

[Sol_Aureus]

im honestly guessing if you played ffxi for a long time, you probably started to relevel many classes. Its natural that leveling a new class is generally more fun than endgame, because endgame progression is fairly limited. its only something you can usually do once in awhile and it doesnt need you to play the class you enjoy. Wow you had no choice but to do the endgame as the class that wanted the item. (i think based on what i heard) but here its a little different.
Many high level classes became farmer only, or completely retired.

I never releveled any classes, I didn't see the point. I spent most of my time challenging myself on my favorite class, summoner, trying to improve my skills, soloing traditionally party-based stuff, or doing hard content with groups of friends. While Dynamis could indeed get stale after doing it the same for a long period of time, it never did for me because I always switched it up. During traditional runs where it was the same old same old, I'd do something like surprise pull mobs we don't normally kill, or directing everyone a different way to switch it up and keep it exciting. Since I ran my own ls and played with a competent group of people who knew each other well, we always had a lot of fun doin stuff like this. And we had a plethora of endgame events to do this with.

[Brotech]

While you make some valid points, saying that vertical progression is nessesary for an MMO to be fun and successful without preceding or following that statement with "in my opinion" seems like you're trying to pass it off as a fact, which is very closed-minded. FFXI proves that vertical progression is NOT necessary to make an MMO fun and successful, otherwise it wouldn't have survived during the 7 years that I played and the cap stayed 75.

I also noticed some of her "valid points" aren't even valid.

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Negatives: Possibly Weapons/Armors you don't need/want
----Counter Argument: Someone will always want that piece weapon/armor.

- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
----Counter Argument: So they can't add in new recipes?

- Old Gathering Locations/Items
--- Negatives: Same boring gathering, nothing new, why gather anymore?
----Counter Argument: They can't add in new materials?

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Negatives: Could be fun, and could be a complete waste of time, with no drops that you need/want
----Counter Argument: So its not fun unless you get drops you need/want? Then once you have it, where is the replayability?

- New Maps/Areas
--- Negatives: Even though its a new map, you cant use repeatable mobs anymore without them feeling like the existing mobs. You negate the ability to re-use mobs and increase ranks/give new skills to.
----Counter Argument: This negates nothing. You can still always use the same mobs, just reskinned, how many companies already do this?

- Old Skills
--- Negatives: You occasionally might get new skills, but you are limited in what you really can add since fixed rank
----Counter Arguement: None, this is the only one that makes sense.

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Positives: The new Weapons and armor will be better than the existing, and there will be something to achieve
----Counter Argument: And in 6mo to 1 year, will be replaced again, so hurrah for something else to de/vendor/whathaveyou.

- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Positives: New Stuff for crafters to do, New Items in the market place and New Skills to achieve
----Counter Argument: And that old stuff will never be made again, except for niche markets.

- New Gathering Locations/Items
--- Positives: Keeps gatherers in business, keeps crafters supplied, gives new skills to achieve
----Counter Arguement: Again, niche markets for older materials/locations.

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Positives: Gives players something to strive for, those few new ranks that allow them into the new content and can introduce new and harder challenges
----Counter Argument: Higher level =/= Harder challenge, that same content could be scaled back in level, and given to the current cap.

- New Maps/Areas
--- Positives: You can simply do more things with more maps/areas, more quests easier, new cool challenges can be made on those new maps and they don't feel like of its another Rank 80-90 mobs area...
----Counter Argument: Again, you can still create new maps and new mobs. FFXI did it time and time again.
- New Skills
--- Positives: Developers can get more creative and they can simply make new ones more powerful giving more things to strive for
----Counter Argument: Ultimately ending with every class/job having 70 odd skills plus an IWIN button just in case. How many is too many? When is enough skills enough?


/end

[AuctionGirl]

I also noticed some of her "valid points" aren't even valid.

/end

Please read my rebuttals below...

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Negatives: Possibly Weapons/Armors you don't need/want
----Counter Argument: Someone will always want that piece weapon/armor.
----- RE: Counter: You already have the best item and possibly this is rare/ex why even get this item? To drop it?

- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
----Counter Argument: So they can't add in new recipes?
----- RE: Counter: So lets say they add in some new recipes, but you are capped, so you do the recipe 50 times at most, then bored for however long it takes to add in a new recipe. Or you can increase ranks, add in 100's of recipes and have something to achieve.

- Old Gathering Locations/Items
--- Negatives: Same boring gathering, nothing new, why gather anymore?
----Counter Argument: They can't add in new materials?
----- RE: Counter: Sure they can add in new materials, but again, you are capped and cannot grow anymore as a character.

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Negatives: Could be fun, and could be a complete waste of time, with no drops that you need/want
----Counter Argument: So its not fun unless you get drops you need/want? Then once you have it, where is the replayability?
----- Re: Counter: With horizontal progression, there will be less items naturally that you will want/need, resulting in less content to do if you are the one whom likes to grow your character. There will be less variation of new mobs/abilities.

- New Maps/Areas
--- Negatives: Even though its a new map, you cant use repeatable mobs anymore without them feeling like the existing mobs. You negate the ability to re-use mobs and increase ranks/give new skills to.
----Counter Argument: This negates nothing. You can still always use the same mobs, just reskinned, how many companies already do this?
----- RE: Counter: So you want to have 6 different areas with the same Goat with different colors of the same level range and abilities? Or would you rather 6 different areas with the game goat, with different levels and abilities/challenges?

- Old Skills
--- Negatives: You occasionally might get new skills, but you are limited in what you really can add since fixed rank
----Counter Arguement: None, this is the only one that makes sense.

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Positives: The new Weapons and armor will be better than the existing, and there will be something to achieve
----Counter Argument: And in 6mo to 1 year, will be replaced again, so hurrah for something else to de/vendor/whathaveyou.
----- RE: Counter: This depends on how its implemented, and don't forget about the materia system with turning equipment into materia to better other equipment. If it takes you 2 years to get the item you need, then I could see your point. I would rather have something new to look at than logging in and going "Hey LS wanna do dynamis for the 1000th time, so we can get drops we don't need?" What do you do when you have the best items in the game? And what do you do when you waited 1 year for the next expansion only to find out that all the equipment you have is still the best and you have nothing to strive for? So you do more dungeons again, this gets old quick.

- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Positives: New Stuff for crafters to do, New Items in the market place and New Skills to achieve
----Counter Argument: And that old stuff will never be made again, except for niche markets.
----- RE: Counter: New crafters coming up will make lower ranked items, quit thinking like no new players will come into the game. FFXI economy was ruined because of this. Why not keep progression for ALL CLASSES, its not just about battle classes.

- New Gathering Locations/Items
--- Positives: Keeps gatherers in business, keeps crafters supplied, gives new skills to achieve
----Counter Arguement: Again, niche markets for older materials/locations.
----- RE: Counter: So you want to stagnant the crafting? Make anyone whom reached the cap no longer need materials, no longer create new items for the game, no longer buy your shards/crystals you once were able to sell? Why would anyone want new items/recipes?

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Positives: Gives players something to strive for, those few new ranks that allow them into the new content and can introduce new and harder challenges
----Counter Argument: Higher level =/= Harder challenge, that same content could be scaled back in level, and given to the current cap.
----- RE: Counter: Higher level does not equal harder challenge and I agree with that, but look at the fact that higher ranks allow for more spells/abilities/counter-abilities and more. Also allows for the ability to create different types of challenges based on new abilities, areas and more. This also creates a small time sink to SP more in parties to get to this new cap, giving players something to achieve.

- New Maps/Areas
--- Positives: You can simply do more things with more maps/areas, more quests easier, new cool challenges can be made on those new maps and they don't feel like of its another Rank 80-90 mobs area...
----Counter Argument: Again, you can still create new maps and new mobs. FFXI did it time and time again.
----- RE: Counter: They did, but sooner or later you will run into a brick wall, and wish you had been growing vertically sooner and release an expansion called abysmal that kills the game it was. If they had not stuck at 75, and didn't do the merit system and kept going with levels we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

- New Skills
--- Positives: Developers can get more creative and they can simply make new ones more powerful giving more things to strive for
----Counter Argument: Ultimately ending with every class/job having 70 odd skills plus an IWIN button just in case. How many is too many? When is enough skills enough?
----- RE: Counter: To be honest in an MMO, you can NEVER have too many skills, too many items, too many spells, too many levels, too many mobs, too hard of a challenge, etc... When you LIMIT yourself, you limit your players, you limit creativity, you limit growth, you limit options.

You don't have to agree with me, I don't really care if you do or don't, as I am a developer myself and have made a few successful MMO games. Maybe you are a player and don't really know what you would like, but only have FFXI to draw upon. If you compare WoW's way of cap increases, that is wrong in my mind, it needs to be a steady schedule that slowly negates old content (but never removes the need for it), not wipes it instantly and never looks back. Niche groups like to repeat the same content 10000's of times over and over, average common player wants to have goals thrown at them, and wants to feel accomplished by constantly attaining new goals. If you limit the amount of goals, you limit the amount of playtime each expansion gives.

I myself love to craft, gather and do more of a solo route in the game. But I don't think this game should be solo oriented. Parties should be needed to progress the quickest in the game. If we stick at a fixed rank like FFXI did, you will see more players like me quitting the game instead of adding to it. The way this game was designed, you cannot do horizontal progression, you will kill off more players than you think.

If you didn't have gathering classes, crafting classes and only did battle and bought/got all your items from drops, then maybe horizontal progression would be possible.

Vertical Progression is the only answer for the way this game was created as a base.

[Brotech]

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
----Counter Argument: Someone will always want that piece weapon/armor.
----- RE: Counter: You already have the best item and possibly this is rare/ex why even get this item? To drop it?
------Counter: What if every weapon put in is a direct sidegrade that is just as good as the one you have, but for different reasons? i.e. stats; so you have the best one for attack, but there is another one that is better for attack speed; or is BIS the only reason you play

- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
----Counter Argument: So they can't add in new recipes?
----- RE: Counter: So lets say they add in some new recipes, but you are capped, so you do the recipe 50 times at most, then bored for however long it takes to add in a new recipe. Or you can increase ranks, add in 100's of recipes and have something to achieve.
------Counter: You can add in 100's of recipes at the current cap without increasing it; either way all it does is create an overly long list of crafts; of which people will make some of either to Power Level themselves through the crafting levels to the next cap, at which point they will only make the stuff that is requested or whatever will make them money

- Old Gathering Locations/Items
----Counter Argument: They can't add in new materials?
----- RE: Counter: Sure they can add in new materials, but again, you are capped and cannot grow anymore as a character.
------Counter: And as we all know; higher levels is all that matters? You can add in quests to allow you to gather new materials; make them long and daunting and take like a week, where you have to gather rare/specific materials.

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
----Counter Argument: So its not fun unless you get drops you need/want? Then once you have it, where is the replayability?
----- Re: Counter: With horizontal progression, there will be less items naturally that you will want/need, resulting in less content to do if you are the one whom likes to grow your character. There will be less variation of new mobs/abilities.
------Counter: With Vertical progression; once your character reaches a certain level you won't need/want to do any of the lower level stuff(assuming there is no level cap/syncing) nor will you want to; thus making anything put in at a lower level not worth doing think old school MC, AQ20/40, BWL.(FFXI never had this issue, you still had people doing sky even when ToAU came out)

- New Maps/Areas
----Counter Argument: This negates nothing. You can still always use the same mobs, just reskinned, how many companies already do this?
----- RE: Counter: So you want to have 6 different areas with the same Goat with different colors of the same level range and abilities? Or would you rather 6 different areas with the game goat, with different levels and abilities/challenges?
------Counter: Again; you don't counter this at all. You can always add in new content; you can justify that same goat to have learned different skills because of the different climate or locales, you can add in different challenges with new zones and such. and look at the map, you can add in new continents to travel to; they didn't make the same mistake as FFXI of giving you the world map.

- Old Skills
----Counter Arguement: None, this is the only one that makes sense.
-----Addendum: However; Once you reach a certain amount of skills; no more are really needed, you can add in quest related skills etc; new classes; cross classes.

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
----Counter Argument: And in 6mo to 1 year, will be replaced again, so hurrah for something else to de/vendor/whathaveyou.
----- RE: Counter: This depends on how its implemented, and don't forget about the materia system with turning equipment into materia to better other equipment. If it takes you 2 years to get the item you need, then I could see your point. I would rather have something new to look at than logging in and going "Hey LS wanna do dynamis for the 1000th time, so we can get drops we don't need?" What do you do when you have the best items in the game? And what do you do when you waited 1 year for the next expansion only to find out that all the equipment you have is still the best and you have nothing to strive for? So you do more dungeons again, this gets old quick.
------Counter: again this all depends on how equipment/items are developed. If the weapon you have is +10 to all stats and the new weapon is +12 to all stats but one, which is +2; not better, but equally good for some stuff. Depending on how its done you can always make equivalent gear appeal to someone.

- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
----Counter Argument: And that old stuff will never be made again, except for niche markets.
----- RE: Counter: New crafters coming up will make lower ranked items, quit thinking like no new players will come into the game. FFXI economy was ruined because of this. Why not keep progression for ALL CLASSES, its not just about battle classes.
------Counter: Thats why i said Niche markets; this doesn't dispute what I said.

- New Gathering Locations/Items
----Counter Arguement: Again, niche markets for older materials/locations.
----- RE: Counter: So you want to stagnant the crafting? Make anyone whom reached the cap no longer need materials, no longer create new items for the game, no longer buy your shards/crystals you once were able to sell? Why would anyone want new items/recipes?
------Counter: I only stated that since I had already stated valid arguements for the old areas, no point in repeating myself.

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
----Counter Argument: Higher level =/= Harder challenge, that same content could be scaled back in level, and given to the current cap.
----- RE: Counter: Higher level does not equal harder challenge and I agree with that, but look at the fact that higher ranks allow for more spells/abilities/counter-abilities and more. Also allows for the ability to create different types of challenges based on new abilities, areas and more. This also creates a small time sink to SP more in parties to get to this new cap, giving players something to achieve.
-----Counter: You can always add new spells/abilities/counter-abilities within a level cap, same with new challenges/abilities/areas and more. If you want a SP sink only; merits are the way to go.

- New Maps/Areas
----Counter Argument: Again, you can still create new maps and new mobs. FFXI did it time and time again.
----- RE: Counter: They did, but sooner or later you will run into a brick wall, and wish you had been growing vertically sooner and release an expansion called abysmal that kills the game it was. If they had not stuck at 75, and didn't do the merit system and kept going with levels we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
------Counter: And when you go with vertical; you will eventually reach the same point. It all depends on how you release the world map.

- New Skills
----Counter Argument: Ultimately ending with every class/job having 70 odd skills plus an IWIN button just in case. How many is too many? When is enough skills enough?
----- RE: Counter: To be honest in an MMO, you can NEVER have too many skills, too many items, too many spells, too many levels, too many mobs, too hard of a challenge, etc... When you LIMIT yourself, you limit your players, you limit creativity, you limit growth, you limit options.
------Counter: Yes; Yes you can, with FFXIV and cross classing skills..Having over 100 skills across 7 classes over 700 skills to choose from; well that would be time consuming in and of itself, and not at all fun when you are limited by AP to place those skills.

You are right, and I don't have to agree with you, which is why I'm not, because I don't. Nor does the fact that you are a developer mean you are right. To each their own. I have played just about every mmo out there looking for what I like. And I haven't experienced it since FFXI(From Release till ToAU). When you do any type of level cap increase; you do negate the previous content always. That is a fact. Old endgame becomes worthless. Yes Niche groups like to run the old stuff for fun; yes new players like new goals; so do niche players. If you limit goals; that is bad design not lack of vertical progression.

I'm not saying never do a level cap increase, I'm saying a level cap every 1-2 years is bad idea. Also the fact that you are already almost 50 across the board is also in my opinion proof of a flawed game design. It should take much longer than it does to reach cap on one class. FFXI for a long time had the right idea of making it take a long time to cap out. (Recently ruined or so I hear)

And yes I agree that horizontal progression is a bad idea with the way they did crafting classes and the battle classes in this game. I agree that this game will have to be vertical progression. Again; bad game design. Don't get me wrong I enjoy this game, its a decent way to pass the time. The counters I provided are only because you wrote them as fact; and I was disputing them. Playing the devils advocates as it were. But yes, flawed game design is flawed.

[Physic]

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
----Counter Argument: Someone will always want that piece weapon/armor.
----- RE: Counter: You already have the best item and possibly this is rare/ex why even get this item? To drop it?
------Counter: What if every weapon put in is a direct sidegrade that is just as good as the one you have, but for different reasons? i.e. stats; so you have the best one for attack, but there is another one that is better for attack speed; or is BIS the only reason you play

- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
----Counter Argument: So they can't add in new recipes?
----- RE: Counter: So lets say they add in some new recipes, but you are capped, so you do the recipe 50 times at most, then bored for however long it takes to add in a new recipe. Or you can increase ranks, add in 100's of recipes and have something to achieve.
------Counter: You can add in 100's of recipes at the current cap without increasing it; either way all it does is create an overly long list of crafts; of which people will make some of either to Power Level themselves through the crafting levels to the next cap, at which point they will only make the stuff that is requested or whatever will make them money

- Old Gathering Locations/Items
----Counter Argument: They can't add in new materials?
----- RE: Counter: Sure they can add in new materials, but again, you are capped and cannot grow anymore as a character.
------Counter: And as we all know; higher levels is all that matters? You can add in quests to allow you to gather new materials; make them long and daunting and take like a week, where you have to gather rare/specific materials.

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
----Counter Argument: So its not fun unless you get drops you need/want? Then once you have it, where is the replayability?
----- Re: Counter: With horizontal progression, there will be less items naturally that you will want/need, resulting in less content to do if you are the one whom likes to grow your character. There will be less variation of new mobs/abilities.
------Counter: With Vertical progression; once your character reaches a certain level you won't need/want to do any of the lower level stuff(assuming there is no level cap/syncing) nor will you want to; thus making anything put in at a lower level not worth doing think old school MC, AQ20/40, BWL.(FFXI never had this issue, you still had people doing sky even when ToAU came out)

- New Maps/Areas
----Counter Argument: This negates nothing. You can still always use the same mobs, just reskinned, how many companies already do this?
----- RE: Counter: So you want to have 6 different areas with the same Goat with different colors of the same level range and abilities? Or would you rather 6 different areas with the game goat, with different levels and abilities/challenges?
------Counter: Again; you don't counter this at all. You can always add in new content; you can justify that same goat to have learned different skills because of the different climate or locales, you can add in different challenges with new zones and such. and look at the map, you can add in new continents to travel to; they didn't make the same mistake as FFXI of giving you the world map.

- Old Skills
----Counter Arguement: None, this is the only one that makes sense.
-----Addendum: However; Once you reach a certain amount of skills; no more are really needed, you can add in quest related skills etc; new classes; cross classes.

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
----Counter Argument: And in 6mo to 1 year, will be replaced again, so hurrah for something else to de/vendor/whathaveyou.
----- RE: Counter: This depends on how its implemented, and don't forget about the materia system with turning equipment into materia to better other equipment. If it takes you 2 years to get the item you need, then I could see your point. I would rather have something new to look at than logging in and going "Hey LS wanna do dynamis for the 1000th time, so we can get drops we don't need?" What do you do when you have the best items in the game? And what do you do when you waited 1 year for the next expansion only to find out that all the equipment you have is still the best and you have nothing to strive for? So you do more dungeons again, this gets old quick.
------Counter: again this all depends on how equipment/items are developed. If the weapon you have is +10 to all stats and the new weapon is +12 to all stats but one, which is +2; not better, but equally good for some stuff. Depending on how its done you can always make equivalent gear appeal to someone.

- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
----Counter Argument: And that old stuff will never be made again, except for niche markets.
----- RE: Counter: New crafters coming up will make lower ranked items, quit thinking like no new players will come into the game. FFXI economy was ruined because of this. Why not keep progression for ALL CLASSES, its not just about battle classes.
------Counter: Thats why i said Niche markets; this doesn't dispute what I said.

- New Gathering Locations/Items
----Counter Arguement: Again, niche markets for older materials/locations.
----- RE: Counter: So you want to stagnant the crafting? Make anyone whom reached the cap no longer need materials, no longer create new items for the game, no longer buy your shards/crystals you once were able to sell? Why would anyone want new items/recipes?
------Counter: I only stated that since I had already stated valid arguements for the old areas, no point in repeating myself.

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
----Counter Argument: Higher level =/= Harder challenge, that same content could be scaled back in level, and given to the current cap.
----- RE: Counter: Higher level does not equal harder challenge and I agree with that, but look at the fact that higher ranks allow for more spells/abilities/counter-abilities and more. Also allows for the ability to create different types of challenges based on new abilities, areas and more. This also creates a small time sink to SP more in parties to get to this new cap, giving players something to achieve.
-----Counter: You can always add new spells/abilities/counter-abilities within a level cap, same with new challenges/abilities/areas and more. If you want a SP sink only; merits are the way to go.

- New Maps/Areas
----Counter Argument: Again, you can still create new maps and new mobs. FFXI did it time and time again.
----- RE: Counter: They did, but sooner or later you will run into a brick wall, and wish you had been growing vertically sooner and release an expansion called abysmal that kills the game it was. If they had not stuck at 75, and didn't do the merit system and kept going with levels we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
------Counter: And when you go with vertical; you will eventually reach the same point. It all depends on how you release the world map.

- New Skills
----Counter Argument: Ultimately ending with every class/job having 70 odd skills plus an IWIN button just in case. How many is too many? When is enough skills enough?
----- RE: Counter: To be honest in an MMO, you can NEVER have too many skills, too many items, too many spells, too many levels, too many mobs, too hard of a challenge, etc... When you LIMIT yourself, you limit your players, you limit creativity, you limit growth, you limit options.
------Counter: Yes; Yes you can, with FFXIV and cross classing skills..Having over 100 skills across 7 classes over 700 skills to choose from; well that would be time consuming in and of itself, and not at all fun when you are limited by AP to place those skills.

You are right, and I don't have to agree with you, which is why I'm not, because I don't. Nor does the fact that you are a developer mean you are right. To each their own. I have played just about every mmo out there looking for what I like. And I haven't experienced it since FFXI(From Release till ToAU). When you do any type of level cap increase; you do negate the previous content always. That is a fact. Old endgame becomes worthless. Yes Niche groups like to run the old stuff for fun; yes new players like new goals; so do niche players. If you limit goals; that is bad design not lack of vertical progression.

I'm not saying never do a level cap increase, I'm saying a level cap every 1-2 years is bad idea. Also the fact that you are already almost 50 across the board is also in my opinion proof of a flawed game design. It should take much longer than it does to reach cap on one class. FFXI for a long time had the right idea of making it take a long time to cap out. (Recently ruined or so I hear)

And yes I agree that horizontal progression is a bad idea with the way they did crafting classes and the battle classes in this game. I agree that this game will have to be vertical progression. Again; bad game design. Don't get me wrong I enjoy this game, its a decent way to pass the time. The counters I provided are only because you wrote them as fact; and I was disputing them. Playing the devils advocates as it were. But yes, flawed game design is flawed.

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counter smash!
cross counter evade -10
kai o ken counter
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lol jk but thats not the most readable format of debate i ve seen