Rank cap increase every 1-2 years discussion thread

[Sorel]

You can keep the older content fresh by adjusting it every patch, changing drops, having cap limits on the dungeons etc...

You kill crafters, gatherers and others if you keep a fixed rank.
There is no choice, cap raises must happen with new content.

I must respectfully, but strongly disagree. New content does not necessitate a new level cap. Once again, I point the the example of Chains Of Promathia and Wings of the Goddess, both of which did not require level cap increases and are widely considered by most FFXI players the two best expansions of the game.

[Sol_Aureus]

im honestly guessing if you played ffxi for a long time, you probably started to relevel many classes. Its natural that leveling a new class is generally more fun than endgame, because endgame progression is fairly limited. its only something you can usually do once in awhile and it doesnt need you to play the class you enjoy. Wow you had no choice but to do the endgame as the class that wanted the item. (i think based on what i heard) but here its a little different.
Many high level classes became farmer only, or completely retired.

I never releveled any classes, I didn't see the point. I spent most of my time challenging myself on my favorite class, summoner, trying to improve my skills, soloing traditionally party-based stuff, or doing hard content with groups of friends. While Dynamis could indeed get stale after doing it the same for a long period of time, it never did for me because I always switched it up. During traditional runs where it was the same old same old, I'd do something like surprise pull mobs we don't normally kill, or directing everyone a different way to switch it up and keep it exciting. Since I ran my own ls and played with a competent group of people who knew each other well, we always had a lot of fun doin stuff like this. And we had a plethora of endgame events to do this with.

[Physic]

I must respectfully, but strongly disagree. New content does not necessitate a new level cap. Once again, I point the the example of Chains Of Promathia and Wings of the Goddess, both of which did not require level cap increases and are widely considered by most FFXI players the two best expansions of the game.

Cop was good from a story point of view, but it added virtually nothing of import for my monk. which continued for many years actually. At least art urgahn had nyzul and salvage for new WS and some new monk gears. but fact is a level cap increase probably would not have had me taking a 3 year break like i did.

[Brotech]

While you make some valid points, saying that vertical progression is nessesary for an MMO to be fun and successful without preceding or following that statement with "in my opinion" seems like you're trying to pass it off as a fact, which is very closed-minded. FFXI proves that vertical progression is NOT necessary to make an MMO fun and successful, otherwise it wouldn't have survived during the 7 years that I played and the cap stayed 75.

I also noticed some of her "valid points" aren't even valid.

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Negatives: Possibly Weapons/Armors you don't need/want
----Counter Argument: Someone will always want that piece weapon/armor.

- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
----Counter Argument: So they can't add in new recipes?

- Old Gathering Locations/Items
--- Negatives: Same boring gathering, nothing new, why gather anymore?
----Counter Argument: They can't add in new materials?

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Negatives: Could be fun, and could be a complete waste of time, with no drops that you need/want
----Counter Argument: So its not fun unless you get drops you need/want? Then once you have it, where is the replayability?

- New Maps/Areas
--- Negatives: Even though its a new map, you cant use repeatable mobs anymore without them feeling like the existing mobs. You negate the ability to re-use mobs and increase ranks/give new skills to.
----Counter Argument: This negates nothing. You can still always use the same mobs, just reskinned, how many companies already do this?

- Old Skills
--- Negatives: You occasionally might get new skills, but you are limited in what you really can add since fixed rank
----Counter Arguement: None, this is the only one that makes sense.

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Positives: The new Weapons and armor will be better than the existing, and there will be something to achieve
----Counter Argument: And in 6mo to 1 year, will be replaced again, so hurrah for something else to de/vendor/whathaveyou.

- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Positives: New Stuff for crafters to do, New Items in the market place and New Skills to achieve
----Counter Argument: And that old stuff will never be made again, except for niche markets.

- New Gathering Locations/Items
--- Positives: Keeps gatherers in business, keeps crafters supplied, gives new skills to achieve
----Counter Arguement: Again, niche markets for older materials/locations.

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Positives: Gives players something to strive for, those few new ranks that allow them into the new content and can introduce new and harder challenges
----Counter Argument: Higher level =/= Harder challenge, that same content could be scaled back in level, and given to the current cap.

- New Maps/Areas
--- Positives: You can simply do more things with more maps/areas, more quests easier, new cool challenges can be made on those new maps and they don't feel like of its another Rank 80-90 mobs area...
----Counter Argument: Again, you can still create new maps and new mobs. FFXI did it time and time again.
- New Skills
--- Positives: Developers can get more creative and they can simply make new ones more powerful giving more things to strive for
----Counter Argument: Ultimately ending with every class/job having 70 odd skills plus an IWIN button just in case. How many is too many? When is enough skills enough?


/end

[AlexiaKidd]

I would not mind if the cap was raised every 1-2 years as long as elite gear already earned is not made redundant. They could put new gear in that was better but then have quests and missions that would allow you to upgrade your old piece into something better so it is not useless.

[Brotech]

problem with this belief is, mmo just means massive multiplayer online, it doesnt have to be a time sink to do that, and their is a market to hit that doesnt want it to be. Im not saying hardcore time sink games should not exist, but its foolish to think that any game that involves intereacting with a large number of people online has to be time sink heavy.

You just need a game that fits your niche, maybe the problem is the niche isnt profitable enough, i dont know the numbers, but if there is a market, someone will eventually make the game, maybe it should be you.

If you had actually read the blog post, he actually touches on the difference between the types of mmos he is referring to.

It really is a shame the Vanguard failed.

Agreed. I had such high hopes for that game.

[AuctionGirl]

I also noticed some of her "valid points" aren't even valid.

/end

Please read my rebuttals below...

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Negatives: Possibly Weapons/Armors you don't need/want
----Counter Argument: Someone will always want that piece weapon/armor.
----- RE: Counter: You already have the best item and possibly this is rare/ex why even get this item? To drop it?

- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
----Counter Argument: So they can't add in new recipes?
----- RE: Counter: So lets say they add in some new recipes, but you are capped, so you do the recipe 50 times at most, then bored for however long it takes to add in a new recipe. Or you can increase ranks, add in 100's of recipes and have something to achieve.

- Old Gathering Locations/Items
--- Negatives: Same boring gathering, nothing new, why gather anymore?
----Counter Argument: They can't add in new materials?
----- RE: Counter: Sure they can add in new materials, but again, you are capped and cannot grow anymore as a character.

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Negatives: Could be fun, and could be a complete waste of time, with no drops that you need/want
----Counter Argument: So its not fun unless you get drops you need/want? Then once you have it, where is the replayability?
----- Re: Counter: With horizontal progression, there will be less items naturally that you will want/need, resulting in less content to do if you are the one whom likes to grow your character. There will be less variation of new mobs/abilities.

- New Maps/Areas
--- Negatives: Even though its a new map, you cant use repeatable mobs anymore without them feeling like the existing mobs. You negate the ability to re-use mobs and increase ranks/give new skills to.
----Counter Argument: This negates nothing. You can still always use the same mobs, just reskinned, how many companies already do this?
----- RE: Counter: So you want to have 6 different areas with the same Goat with different colors of the same level range and abilities? Or would you rather 6 different areas with the game goat, with different levels and abilities/challenges?

- Old Skills
--- Negatives: You occasionally might get new skills, but you are limited in what you really can add since fixed rank
----Counter Arguement: None, this is the only one that makes sense.

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Positives: The new Weapons and armor will be better than the existing, and there will be something to achieve
----Counter Argument: And in 6mo to 1 year, will be replaced again, so hurrah for something else to de/vendor/whathaveyou.
----- RE: Counter: This depends on how its implemented, and don't forget about the materia system with turning equipment into materia to better other equipment. If it takes you 2 years to get the item you need, then I could see your point. I would rather have something new to look at than logging in and going "Hey LS wanna do dynamis for the 1000th time, so we can get drops we don't need?" What do you do when you have the best items in the game? And what do you do when you waited 1 year for the next expansion only to find out that all the equipment you have is still the best and you have nothing to strive for? So you do more dungeons again, this gets old quick.

- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Positives: New Stuff for crafters to do, New Items in the market place and New Skills to achieve
----Counter Argument: And that old stuff will never be made again, except for niche markets.
----- RE: Counter: New crafters coming up will make lower ranked items, quit thinking like no new players will come into the game. FFXI economy was ruined because of this. Why not keep progression for ALL CLASSES, its not just about battle classes.

- New Gathering Locations/Items
--- Positives: Keeps gatherers in business, keeps crafters supplied, gives new skills to achieve
----Counter Arguement: Again, niche markets for older materials/locations.
----- RE: Counter: So you want to stagnant the crafting? Make anyone whom reached the cap no longer need materials, no longer create new items for the game, no longer buy your shards/crystals you once were able to sell? Why would anyone want new items/recipes?

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Positives: Gives players something to strive for, those few new ranks that allow them into the new content and can introduce new and harder challenges
----Counter Argument: Higher level =/= Harder challenge, that same content could be scaled back in level, and given to the current cap.
----- RE: Counter: Higher level does not equal harder challenge and I agree with that, but look at the fact that higher ranks allow for more spells/abilities/counter-abilities and more. Also allows for the ability to create different types of challenges based on new abilities, areas and more. This also creates a small time sink to SP more in parties to get to this new cap, giving players something to achieve.

- New Maps/Areas
--- Positives: You can simply do more things with more maps/areas, more quests easier, new cool challenges can be made on those new maps and they don't feel like of its another Rank 80-90 mobs area...
----Counter Argument: Again, you can still create new maps and new mobs. FFXI did it time and time again.
----- RE: Counter: They did, but sooner or later you will run into a brick wall, and wish you had been growing vertically sooner and release an expansion called abysmal that kills the game it was. If they had not stuck at 75, and didn't do the merit system and kept going with levels we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

- New Skills
--- Positives: Developers can get more creative and they can simply make new ones more powerful giving more things to strive for
----Counter Argument: Ultimately ending with every class/job having 70 odd skills plus an IWIN button just in case. How many is too many? When is enough skills enough?
----- RE: Counter: To be honest in an MMO, you can NEVER have too many skills, too many items, too many spells, too many levels, too many mobs, too hard of a challenge, etc... When you LIMIT yourself, you limit your players, you limit creativity, you limit growth, you limit options.

You don't have to agree with me, I don't really care if you do or don't, as I am a developer myself and have made a few successful MMO games. Maybe you are a player and don't really know what you would like, but only have FFXI to draw upon. If you compare WoW's way of cap increases, that is wrong in my mind, it needs to be a steady schedule that slowly negates old content (but never removes the need for it), not wipes it instantly and never looks back. Niche groups like to repeat the same content 10000's of times over and over, average common player wants to have goals thrown at them, and wants to feel accomplished by constantly attaining new goals. If you limit the amount of goals, you limit the amount of playtime each expansion gives.

I myself love to craft, gather and do more of a solo route in the game. But I don't think this game should be solo oriented. Parties should be needed to progress the quickest in the game. If we stick at a fixed rank like FFXI did, you will see more players like me quitting the game instead of adding to it. The way this game was designed, you cannot do horizontal progression, you will kill off more players than you think.

If you didn't have gathering classes, crafting classes and only did battle and bought/got all your items from drops, then maybe horizontal progression would be possible.

Vertical Progression is the only answer for the way this game was created as a base.

[Duelle]

I really dislike MMOs that constantly raise the level cap, simply because it makes it seem like all the effort that we put into getting our previous gear is worthless, because the new Level 60 body is WAY better then the level 50 body that I spent 6 months trying to get. I'm not saying that the new, higher level gear always comparable to the old gear; In my opinion, a level 60 body SHOULD be better then a level 50 body. However, constantly making gear that was coveted become essentially useless, and thinking that a level cap raise is necessary for the growth of an MMO is not something that I agree with.

I disagree with your entire premise, but this part of your post bothered me a bit. As someone who has done the gear grind several times in those "MMOs that raise the level cap", I can tell you that for every person who cried about their phat lootz becoming collectors' items, you also had people who simply shrugged their shoulders and got back into the grind because they wanted to see the content.

Raising the level cap means that you have more opportunities to not only add content and add gear, but also further develop the way your character classes play, or as companies like Blizzard have demonstrated, make really big changes to classes at a core level that would otherwise not be possible.

From a gear and itemization perspectives, the lv75 cap in XI being in place for so many years gave us a lousy selection of sidegrades that had to be as such as to do exactly what you wanted; not obsolete older content. Problem is, i'd rather just increase the power of the players over just sticking them with lousy sidegrades for several years. It detracts from the proverbial carrot on a stick that gear is supposed to be when in context of MMORPGs.

That there should be content in the game that lasts a decent amount of time, sure. That they decide to not increase the level cap is folly and detrimental to more than just the content it risks making obsolete.

[Wolfie]

I disagree with your entire premise, but this part of your post bothered me a bit. As someone who has done the gear grind several times in those "MMOs that raise the level cap", I can tell you that for every person who cried about their phat lootz becoming collectors' items, you also had people who simply shrugged their shoulders and got back into the grind because they wanted to see the content.

Raising the level cap means that you have more opportunities to not only add content and add gear, but also further develop the way your character classes play, or as companies like Blizzard have demonstrated, make really big changes to classes at a core level that would otherwise not be possible.

From a gear and itemization perspectives, the lv75 cap in XI being in place for so many years gave us a lousy selection of sidegrades that had to be as such as to do exactly what you wanted; not obsolete older content. Problem is, i'd rather just increase the power of the players over just sticking them with lousy sidegrades for several years. It detracts from the proverbial carrot on a stick that gear is supposed to be when in context of MMORPGs.

That there should be content in the game that lasts a decent amount of time, sure. That they decide to not increase the level cap is folly and detrimental to more than just the content it risks making obsolete.

Yep.

This is pretty much what drove me to quit FFXI. I realized, one day, that after 3 years of being 75, I was still doing the same content and found myself questioning new content as being worthwhile. I quit shortly after Salvage was released, because I realized that it was simply not worth my time to go there; the opportunity to develop my character was minimal and the effort was too great.

And I feel like I have to explain what you meant by Blizzard making core class changes, because that's a VERY good point to be made in favor of level cap raising.

When Blizzard obsoletes content with a new expansion pack, it makes it very easy to start every class and encounter with a blank slate. Since only an extreme minority will ever be going back to do the old content, they can change class skills and roles around at will and design the new content to fit around these new classes.

If they still had to keep this old content in mind, these balance changes would become almost impossible. It would mean that either the balance changes have to fit the old play styles/end game model, or that they'd have to go back and re-do all of the old content to fit the new class balance changes. It's the reason why you never see dramatic class changes until a new expansion is released.

[iniside]

Inreasing level cap, means you have run out of ideas how to expand game.
Vertical Expand, was never and never will be good. GAme should exapnd in Horizontal matter. You should be able to do as many things as possible on single level, and shouldn't be forced to level again and again to do more things.

Raising the level cap means that you have more opportunities to not only add content and add gear, but also further develop the way your character classes play, or as companies like Blizzard have demonstrated, make really big changes to classes at a core level that would otherwise not be possible.

You are entirely wrong. You can expand game in horizontal manner. You can add Alternate Advacnment, Perks, Feats, whatever you imagine. In case of FFXIV you can add more classes (which is best solution to expand game). You can add more dungeons, more content, and everything at single level cap forever. Higher level cap means only you have to hit it again. And again. And again. And then you get bored and quit.
Blizzard is not really good example on how the game shoukld be developed. Those guys have no idea what to do with game since TBC.

- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
----Counter Argument: So they can't add in new recipes?
----- RE: Counter: So lets say they add in some new recipes, but you are capped, so you do the recipe 50 times at most, then bored for however long it takes to add in a new recipe. Or you can increase ranks, add in 100's of recipes and have something to achieve.

You can add more crafting skills, add cross-proffesion recipes, make new recipes required specific materials, that are obtainable ony in new zones. New Recipes cloud need specific perks you have to select. Really exapdning game in horizontal manner have endless possibilites.
If you can't imagine that... Then well.