Rank cap increase every 1-2 years discussion thread

[Sorel]

You can keep the older content fresh by adjusting it every patch, changing drops, having cap limits on the dungeons etc...

You kill crafters, gatherers and others if you keep a fixed rank.
There is no choice, cap raises must happen with new content.

I must respectfully, but strongly disagree. New content does not necessitate a new level cap. Once again, I point the the example of Chains Of Promathia and Wings of the Goddess, both of which did not require level cap increases and are widely considered by most FFXI players the two best expansions of the game.

[Physic]

I must respectfully, but strongly disagree. New content does not necessitate a new level cap. Once again, I point the the example of Chains Of Promathia and Wings of the Goddess, both of which did not require level cap increases and are widely considered by most FFXI players the two best expansions of the game.

Cop was good from a story point of view, but it added virtually nothing of import for my monk. which continued for many years actually. At least art urgahn had nyzul and salvage for new WS and some new monk gears. but fact is a level cap increase probably would not have had me taking a 3 year break like i did.

[Kiara]

Hi AuctionGirl,

Huh? Did you even read my post?

When did I say I want to "repeat the same content"?

You are clearly excited about always getting New Gear - "getting the best armor/weapons" - and if you enjoy getting "the best" every 6 months, that's your opinion, but I strongly disagree with that pace.

The numerous examples I provided would be something SE could pace and release every 3 months if they wanted to. Fast enough for you?

I just believe there is New Content that caters to different segments of the gaming populace that can be done without making the best gear obsolete.

And as I said in my first post, I'm in favor of Level Cap Increases; it's just how it's handled, and I provided ideas for interesting New Content that *doesn't* require Level Cap Increases (or it can be tied to the increase as well).

[AuctionGirl]

Hi AuctionGirl,

Huh? Did you even read my post?

When did I say I want to "repeat the same content"?

You are clearly excited about always getting New Gear - "getting the best armor/weapons" - and if you enjoy getting "the best" every 6 months, that's your opinion, but I strongly disagree with that pace.

The numerous examples I provided would be something SE could pace and release every 3 months if they wanted to. Fast enough for you?

I just believe there is New Content that caters to different segments of the gaming populace that can be done without making the best gear obsolete.

And as I said in my first post, I'm in favor of Level Cap Increases; it's just how it's handled, and I provided ideas for interesting New Content that *doesn't* require Level Cap Increases (or it can be tied to the increase as well).

Kiara I am happy you are in favor of rank increases, they are a must though, and have to happen as fast or faster than new content lasts in the game. New Recipes, New Content, New Armors/Weapons, New everything every so often, just makes something better. Same Recipes, New Content, Old Armors/Weapons, only fulfills 1/3 of what can and should be done often. If you keep people thinking about finding new recipes, new armors/weapons and more... you have increased the amount of content in the game 10x more than just adding a couple new armors/weapons and maybe a couple dungeons.

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Negatives: Possibly Weapons/Armors you don't need/want
- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
- Old Gathering Locations/Items
--- Negatives: Same boring gathering, nothing new, why gather anymore?
- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Negatives: Could be fun, and could be a complete waste of time, with no drops that you need/want
- New Maps/Areas
--- Negatives: Even though its a new map, you cant use repeatable mobs anymore without them feeling like the existing mobs. You negate the ability to re-use mobs and increase ranks/give new skills to.
- Old Skills
--- Negatives: You occasionally might get new skills, but you are limited in what you really can add since fixed rank

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Positives: The new Weapons and armor will be better than the existing, and there will be something to achieve
- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Positives: New Stuff for crafters to do, New Items in the market place and New Skills to achieve
- New Gathering Locations/Items
--- Positives: Keeps gatherers in business, keeps crafters supplied, gives new skills to achieve
- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Positives: Gives players something to strive for, those few new ranks that allow them into the new content and can introduce new and harder challenges
- New Maps/Areas
--- Positives: You can simply do more things with more maps/areas, more quests easier, new cool challenges can be made on those new maps and they don't feel like of its another Rank 80-90 mobs area...
- New Skills
--- Positives: Developers can get more creative and they can simply make new ones more powerful giving more things to strive for

Really no choice, if you want the game to last a long time, it has to grow in every aspect, not just horizontal, but vertically also.

[Sol_Aureus]

Kiara I am happy you are in favor of rank increases, they are a must though, and have to happen as fast or faster than new content lasts in the game. New Recipes, New Content, New Armors/Weapons, New everything every so often, just makes something better. Same Recipes, New Content, Old Armors/Weapons, only fulfills 1/3 of what can and should be done often. If you keep people thinking about finding new recipes, new armors/weapons and more... you have increased the amount of content in the game 10x more than just adding a couple new armors/weapons and maybe a couple dungeons.

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Negatives: Possibly Weapons/Armors you don't need/want
- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
- Old Gathering Locations/Items
--- Negatives: Same boring gathering, nothing new, why gather anymore?
- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Negatives: Could be fun, and could be a complete waste of time, with no drops that you need/want
- New Maps/Areas
--- Negatives: Even though its a new map, you cant use repeatable mobs anymore without them feeling like the existing mobs. You negate the ability to re-use mobs and increase ranks/give new skills to.
- Old Skills
--- Negatives: You occasionally might get new skills, but you are limited in what you really can add since fixed rank

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Positives: The new Weapons and armor will be better than the existing, and there will be something to achieve
- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Positives: New Stuff for crafters to do, New Items in the market place and New Skills to achieve
- New Gathering Locations/Items
--- Positives: Keeps gatherers in business, keeps crafters supplied, gives new skills to achieve
- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Positives: Gives players something to strive for, those few new ranks that allow them into the new content and can introduce new and harder challenges
- New Maps/Areas
--- Positives: You can simply do more things with more maps/areas, more quests easier, new cool challenges can be made on those new maps and they don't feel like of its another Rank 80-90 mobs area...
- New Skills
--- Positives: Developers can get more creative and they can simply make new ones more powerful giving more things to strive for

Really no choice, if you want the game to last a long time, it has to grow in every aspect, not just horizontal, but vertically also.

While you make some valid points, saying that vertical progression is nessesary for an MMO to be fun and successful without preceding or following that statement with "in my opinion" seems like you're trying to pass it off as a fact, which is very closed-minded. FFXI proves that vertical progression is NOT necessary to make an MMO fun and successful, otherwise it wouldn't have survived during the 7 years that I played and the cap stayed 75.

[Physic]

While you make some valid points, saying that vertical progression is nessesary for an MMO to be fun and successful without preceding or following that statement with "in my opinion" seems like you're trying to pass it off as a fact, which is very closed-minded. FFXI proves that vertical progression is NOT necessary to make an MMO fun and successful, otherwise it wouldn't have survived during the 7 years that I played and the cap stayed 75.

im honestly guessing if you played ffxi for a long time, you probably started to relevel many classes. Its natural that leveling a new class is generally more fun than endgame, because endgame progression is fairly limited. its only something you can usually do once in awhile and it doesnt need you to play the class you enjoy. Wow you had no choice but to do the endgame as the class that wanted the item. (i think based on what i heard) but here its a little different.
Many high level classes became farmer only, or completely retired.

[Brotech]

While you make some valid points, saying that vertical progression is nessesary for an MMO to be fun and successful without preceding or following that statement with "in my opinion" seems like you're trying to pass it off as a fact, which is very closed-minded. FFXI proves that vertical progression is NOT necessary to make an MMO fun and successful, otherwise it wouldn't have survived during the 7 years that I played and the cap stayed 75.

I also noticed some of her "valid points" aren't even valid.

Horizontal Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Negatives: Possibly Weapons/Armors you don't need/want
----Counter Argument: Someone will always want that piece weapon/armor.

- Old Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Negatives: Same boring stuff, capped and bored, floods markets, ruins economy
----Counter Argument: So they can't add in new recipes?

- Old Gathering Locations/Items
--- Negatives: Same boring gathering, nothing new, why gather anymore?
----Counter Argument: They can't add in new materials?

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Negatives: Could be fun, and could be a complete waste of time, with no drops that you need/want
----Counter Argument: So its not fun unless you get drops you need/want? Then once you have it, where is the replayability?

- New Maps/Areas
--- Negatives: Even though its a new map, you cant use repeatable mobs anymore without them feeling like the existing mobs. You negate the ability to re-use mobs and increase ranks/give new skills to.
----Counter Argument: This negates nothing. You can still always use the same mobs, just reskinned, how many companies already do this?

- Old Skills
--- Negatives: You occasionally might get new skills, but you are limited in what you really can add since fixed rank
----Counter Arguement: None, this is the only one that makes sense.

Vertical Progression
- New Items/Weapons/Armors
--- Positives: The new Weapons and armor will be better than the existing, and there will be something to achieve
----Counter Argument: And in 6mo to 1 year, will be replaced again, so hurrah for something else to de/vendor/whathaveyou.

- New Recipes/Crafting Skills
--- Positives: New Stuff for crafters to do, New Items in the market place and New Skills to achieve
----Counter Argument: And that old stuff will never be made again, except for niche markets.

- New Gathering Locations/Items
--- Positives: Keeps gatherers in business, keeps crafters supplied, gives new skills to achieve
----Counter Arguement: Again, niche markets for older materials/locations.

- New Dungeons/Mobs/Challenges
--- Positives: Gives players something to strive for, those few new ranks that allow them into the new content and can introduce new and harder challenges
----Counter Argument: Higher level =/= Harder challenge, that same content could be scaled back in level, and given to the current cap.

- New Maps/Areas
--- Positives: You can simply do more things with more maps/areas, more quests easier, new cool challenges can be made on those new maps and they don't feel like of its another Rank 80-90 mobs area...
----Counter Argument: Again, you can still create new maps and new mobs. FFXI did it time and time again.
- New Skills
--- Positives: Developers can get more creative and they can simply make new ones more powerful giving more things to strive for
----Counter Argument: Ultimately ending with every class/job having 70 odd skills plus an IWIN button just in case. How many is too many? When is enough skills enough?


/end

[_C-a-e-r-i-t-h_]

There really is no choice in horizontal progression vs vertical, the answer is vertical progression.

If it was that simple, there wouldn't be over a hundred posts debating it.

The real issue is lack of content. MMORPGs were originally a world first, a grind second. Modern MMOs don't have a lot of features, or anything to do except grind.

If all there is to do in a game is level up, then yes, obviously vertical progression is the only way to go.

If the game is designed with some sense of grandness and imagination, then horizontal progression is perfectly viable.

Considering how sparse FFXIV is, they should just make the level cap 1000 and be set for life.

[Chezen]

Kiara,

While you bring up some good points, you seem to forget about the most important part of this game. If you release new content too slow, people will leave. You can only repeat the same content so many times before it gets old. There should always be a challenge in the game of getting the best armor/weapons. You should not be able to keep the same stuff for more than 6 months. People probably disagree with this, but if you keep your armor forever, you have less goals to shoot for on each and every content patch they release. If you are progressing slower or stopped ranks, how do you keep adding in better equipment that soon destroys Capped rank+ challenges, makes your capped rank hard mobs before now are easy. So you are neglecting the past content also in these armor/weapon additions. You also destroy the crafters growth, as they have nothing new to strive for. You keep battle entertained, but there are players whom enjoy crafting and playing the market, you will soon make that stale. You also ruin the economy with an even larger flood of armor/weapons destroying new crafters ability to join the market (and be profitable) and grow. Vertical Progression at a fixed rate of time would keep everyone with something to do.

There really is no choice in horizontal progression vs vertical, the answer is vertical progression.

If you choose Horizontal Progression, you are putting a nail in your coffin.

That is if your primary reason to play is gear, which really is why for people such as yourself, and a very valid point. But it isn't and doesn't have to be everyone's reason.

I would like to have that point that I am the best I can be, and I take that best and fight various monsters, or have various scenarios for it. Why? Awesome cutscenes. Adventure. Self-pride in defeating diferent types of difficult bosses. Whatever other reasons the devs can think up.

I'm not saying this will work for everybody, or that there should be no level expansions or new gear. I just want to see more innovation than the typical gear chase. I want to see endgame have more content than the typical dungeon. I like dungeons to a point, but not that much. I prefer exploring, quest-type stuff, puzzles, and especially story. Story is what drives me the most in FF games.

[AlexiaKidd]

I would not mind if the cap was raised every 1-2 years as long as elite gear already earned is not made redundant. They could put new gear in that was better but then have quests and missions that would allow you to upgrade your old piece into something better so it is not useless.