Death Penalty

[geniusprime]

First don't ever talk about realism in a fantasy game or any game as a matter of fact. Its a game. Games are not real and the purpose of games are for fun not to simulate reality. When they begin to simulate reality they become a simulation and not a game.

Secondly the death penalties you're referring to are archaic mechanisms. Probably I don't play those archaic games but I am not aware of any modern game that still gives the DP you mentioned except for FFXI. So referring to old ancient MMO or stating games in which its worse does not make the current DP in this games and other games justifiable.

How does death penalty gives the player incentives to play better? Isn't it better to reward for playing better than to punish for not playing good? When you die you have been penalized by DEATH. Why add more?

I also don't understand what you mean by "zombeing" your way through challenges. I have no problem with a gamer dying and returning to the last checkpoint. Thats fine, for it works out as a reset. However, all of the added penalties are unnecessary.

When you die in this game you are sent back to the last crystal. Which is fine but then you are practically useless for three minutes because now its harder to play because of weakness. And this difficulty is not just because of health reduction but a reduction in everything else. Three minutes of doing more or less nothing. Yes I can browse the net, get a cup of coffee etc but the object of a game is to keep the gamer playing.

[Preypacer]

First don't ever talk about realism in a fantasy game or any game as a matter of fact. Its a game. Games are not real and the purpose of games are for fun not to simulate reality. When they begin to simulate reality they become a simulation and not a game.

"More realistic" as in, there's consequences for your actions. That you can resurrect after dying, over and over again, already takes it outside the realm of being even remotely realistic. Hell, that you can play a cat-like humanoid creature that runs around fighting Molboros and Goblins and riding on huge birds (which of course we can't do *yet* in XIV) and flying in airships (again, not *yet*) and so forth... Well, you get the idea.

Secondly the death penalties you're referring to are archaic mechanisms. Probably I don't play those archaic games but I am not aware of any modern game that still gives the DP you mentioned except for FFXI. So referring to old ancient MMO or stating games in which its worse does not make the current DP in this games and other games justifiable.

And you not liking the DP in this game does not make it unjustifiable. It makes it your personal opinion.

Like you said... This is just a discussion. Right?

How does death penalty gives the player incentives to play better? Isn't it better to reward for playing better than to punish for not playing good? When you die you have been penalized by DEATH. Why add more?

Personally, I think the penalty in XIV could be a bit harsher, for a few reasons.

Let me give you just one example why... and this is further illustrated in the next bit...

On one of my previous tries of FFXIV, I got sick of doing leves with other players. Why? Because they basically failed their way to a win. In other words, they 'zombied' their way through them. They would take a leve at a higher difficulty than they could reasonably handle. They'd go in, do as much damage as possible, die, respawn... wait off their death penalty - sometimes not even doing that much - go back... do as much damage as possible... die... respawn... go back... and so on. They would continue to do this until the leve was completed...

I suggested maybe using strategy to try and take them out more cautiously so we don't die so much. The response I got was pretty much "What's the point? Death is pretty tame in this game, so there's no point in being strategic. Just as good to just rush in and do as much DPS as we can".

That should never happen. Death should never be something that's "shrugged off" because there's no meaningful penalty for it.

Though I know it sounds great in theory (and it's stated an awful lot by people who don't like DP's), "dying itself" is not a good enough deterrent to make people play more strategically or actively try to avoid it. Hell, in some MMOs, it's used regularly as a convenient means of transportation. Like a cheap and quick teleport home.

Using FFXI as an example of the other option... In FFXI death has a meaningful penalty. You lose xp and can possibly lose a level for dying. I would bet a month's salary if they had a penalty like that in XIV... You would *not* see people doing leves - or doing anything for that matter - as carelessly and recklessly as people do them in XIV. You would not see them taking death so lightly. Guaranteed, you'd be seeing a lot more strategy, a lot more planning and a lot less careless "Leroy Jenkins" type behavior. Why? Because people care about losing xp. They care about losing progress. It's something that they are *not* going to want to lose.

And while I know some like to say "oh only a masochist likes being punished for dying"... anyone with that mentality, or something similar, completely misses the point. People who prefer a harsher death penalty don't like dying either. In fact, they probably like it even *less*. What they like about it is that it gives the game that much more "urgency" and makes their actions and planning that much more meaningful. It makes surviving a near impossible encounter 'cause everyone pulled it together and prevailed that much more exciting, because there was a lot more at stake than just "having to run back from a home crystal".

I also don't understand what you mean by "zombeing" your way through challenges. I have no problem with a gamer dying and returning to the last checkpoint. Thats fine, for it works out as a reset. However, all of the added penalties are unnecessary.

My example above - where people are running into encounters only to die, res... run back... res... run back... die... res... run back... until they've defeated the encounter - is an example of "zombie" like gameplay.

Again, that only happens because the death penalty is *not* very harsh in XIV to a number of people. Rather than being something they try to avoid, they actually abuse it... almost as a "tactic" (using that word in the lightest possible way).

Something that's already light/lenient enough that people are abusing it in such ways does not need to be made more lenient.

When you die in this game you are sent back to the last crystal. Which is fine but then you are practically useless for three minutes because now its harder to play because of weakness. And this difficulty is not just because of health reduction but a reduction in everything else. Three minutes of doing more or less nothing. Yes I can browse the net, get a cup of coffee etc but the object of a game is to keep the gamer playing.

And so it should - ideally - make you and others try that much harder to not die in the first place, right?

Also, on balance, 3 minutes is really not a lot of time... unless you're dying frequently. In the times I've died, during leves, etc.. my weakness was almost worn off by the time I got back to the levequest area. If you're dying so frequently that those 3 minutes are adding up, then the problem likely isn't the penalty.

[geniusprime]

An overall summary of what you said is "I don't like when others play in a manner that does not suite me. For they cheapen their gaming experience by "zombeing" through leves while I take the time to strategize in order to complete leves." That seems to be the overall theme. Because other gamers are "exploiting" the game in a manner that doesn't pleases you, they should be penalize to prevent them from playing the game in that manner. In reality, they have found a strategy that works for them.

Am I condoning this strategy? Not necessarily but, if instead of punishing these gamers I reward gamers who choses to play more "skillfully" thus encouraging the behavior of playing good instead of playing "bad". As I have said previously, deducting time from the clock when you die is a far better strategy than just waiting around for three minutes.

[Symon17]

"Personally, I think the penalty in XIV could be a bit harsher, for a few reasons.

Let me give you just one example why... and this is further illustrated in the next bit...

On one of my previous tries of FFXIV, I got sick of doing leves with other players. Why? Because they basically failed their way to a win. In other words, they 'zombied' their way through them. They would take a leve at a higher difficulty than they could reasonably handle. They'd go in, do as much damage as possible, die, respawn... wait off their death penalty - sometimes not even doing that much - go back... do as much damage as possible... die... respawn... go back... and so on. They would continue to do this until the leve was completed...

I suggested maybe using strategy to try and take them out more cautiously so we don't die so much. The response I got was pretty much "What's the point? Death is pretty tame in this game, so there's no point in being strategic. Just as good to just rush in and do as much DPS as we can".

That should never happen. Death should never be something that's "shrugged off" because there's no meaningful penalty for it.

While I definitely understand where you're coming from, I actually enjoy "zombieing" my way through leves (though until this discussion I wasn't aware that was a thing). The thing is personally I get a rush from taking on mobs of a much higher level, and sometimes coming out on top. Other times not so much. The point is I don't feel you should decide where my fun in this game comes from.

Also, I agree with the OP in the sense that this death penalty sucks. And before everyone blindly attacks me, hear me out. I've played other MMOs with "harsher death penalties" and I never had a problem with their implementation. Why you ask? Because there was a consequence, yes, but the consequence wasn't "I'm going to walk around/browse the net/do anything but actually play for three minutes."

I feel the way this game handles its death penalty does not give a sense of dread, like most of the posters here seem to want. It actually just acts as an inconvenience that breaks the flow of the game and compels me to stop playing for its duration. With this death penalty, no one really is getting what they want, and that's what I believe the OP is trying to express.

Also to other people who just say "go play 'Insert different MMO here'" doesn't get anyone anywhere. This isn't about other games and we really should work on our focus. Not to mention that at this point, it isn't even clever anymore.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

First don't ever talk about realism in a fantasy game or any game as a matter of fact. Its a game. Games are not real and the purpose of games are for fun not to simulate reality. When they begin to simulate reality they become a simulation and not a game.

Secondly the death penalties you're referring to are archaic mechanisms. Probably I don't play those archaic games but I am not aware of any modern game that still gives the DP you mentioned except for FFXI. So referring to old ancient MMO or stating games in which its worse does not make the current DP in this games and other games justifiable.

How does death penalty gives the player incentives to play better? Isn't it better to reward for playing better than to punish for not playing good? When you die you have been penalized by DEATH. Why add more?

I also don't understand what you mean by "zombeing" your way through challenges. I have no problem with a gamer dying and returning to the last checkpoint. Thats fine, for it works out as a reset. However, all of the added penalties are unnecessary.

When you die in this game you are sent back to the last crystal. Which is fine but then you are practically useless for three minutes because now its harder to play because of weakness. And this difficulty is not just because of health reduction but a reduction in everything else. Three minutes of doing more or less nothing. Yes I can browse the net, get a cup of coffee etc but the object of a game is to keep the gamer playing.

you have to be trolling, I mean you have to be......

oh 3 mins, for the love of god THREE MINUTES!

archaic? really? WoW (game is one year younger then FFXI) has you run to your corpse. You are preaching a really REALLY old argument bud..... and it is long since ignored.

[Spellstar]

Probably I don't play those archaic games but I am not aware of any modern game that still gives the DP you mentioned except for FFXI. So referring to old ancient MMO or stating games in which its worse does not make the current DP in this games and other games justifiable.

Try Lord of the Rings online, return to local death point (just like ffxiv) but with 10minute sickness. ffxiv only has 3mins!

So there are other games that provide death penalty. Lord of the Rings online is just one. Try googling or actually playing some other mmo's before you make statements you dont know much about ! Otherwise you will just sound like an idiot XD

[Amage]

First don't ever talk about realism in a fantasy game or any game as a matter of fact. Its a game. Games are not real and the purpose of games are for fun not to simulate reality. When they begin to simulate reality they become a simulation and not a game.

Secondly the death penalties you're referring to are archaic mechanisms. Probably I don't play those archaic games but I am not aware of any modern game that still gives the DP you mentioned except for FFXI. So referring to old ancient MMO or stating games in which its worse does not make the current DP in this games and other games justifiable.

How does death penalty gives the player incentives to play better? Isn't it better to reward for playing better than to punish for not playing good? When you die you have been penalized by DEATH. Why add more?

I also don't understand what you mean by "zombeing" your way through challenges. I have no problem with a gamer dying and returning to the last checkpoint. Thats fine, for it works out as a reset. However, all of the added penalties are unnecessary.

When you die in this game you are sent back to the last crystal. Which is fine but then you are practically useless for three minutes because now its harder to play because of weakness. And this difficulty is not just because of health reduction but a reduction in everything else. Three minutes of doing more or less nothing. Yes I can browse the net, get a cup of coffee etc but the object of a game is to keep the gamer playing.

Just saying go to the newer stay "Super Easy Mode MMO" and leave us retro MMO players alone..