Conj needs to be split - WHM and BLM

[MagicofGaia]

Leave Conjurer be! If you want a white mage and black mage go back to FFXI. You already have white and black magic. Limiting yourself isn't going to accomplish anything.

Doesn't accomplish anything??

-Well look at a few facts, since you obviously didn't decide to read through everyone's posts. WHM has already been discussed as a possible added class by developers, not just us.
-WHM by tradition has some strong spells such as banish, not to mention the best cure potency
-BLM by definition is ranged magic dps
-RDM in xi was a little op combined with whm or nin, but that's not the point. dps, can main or sub heal, and can solo the crap out of most anything it wants to with enough time and practice/gear/skill

If you haven't noticed, one of the largest complaints people have right now is that people are getting the best of too many worlds. Limiting what skills that can be obtained is far more balanced, and more to the 'tradition' of Final Fantasy.

As I've said a couple of times now.. Yes, Conjurer makes for a well balanced WHM. And I don't have problems with it up to the mid 20 ranks. I think it's fair for WHM to have mid grade dps spells. If you recall xi, if blm is your sub you have access to mid level dps spells. But the essence of a main heal in any FF game is not to be able to main heal the party, and demolish enemies at the same friggin time.

I hate to repost this, but once again, from Yoshi-p himself in a recent interview...

"Then once you get past that first step of getting into the world, you realize that there is just so much to do. There's a lot of content, it's not ending, there's all this stuff do to. And also, it's a real Final Fantasy game--it's not just some game--it has that Final Fantasy Flavor."

This game will cater to FF fans, and hopefully some general mmo fans. But the way the system is designed at the moment is that every single class can be a god assuming you've leveled other classes and take the best of all trees.

They 'will' be limiting skills from all classes, get over it. Especially cross class skills.

In lue of this, it is more fair and balanced for the mage classes to be split. It 'WILL' give role ambiguity, and it 'WILL' give class uniqueness. This is a tried and true fact throughout most FF titles.

Good day sir

[MagicofGaia]

Good day, sir.

I played whm and blm, along with an handful of other jobs, in ffxi for 7+ years, so here's my two cents on con & thm in ffxiv:

I don't understand the problem with con & thm. Why do people want to see them divided/rearranged into different, more restricted, classes? I realize they each need a few tweaks here and there, but they do not need to be destroyed and rebuilt.

Throughout this thread, people have frequently mentioned topics such as class uniqueness and role ambiguity.

What I don't see discussed very often are concepts like responsibility, communication, versatility and choice.

The system in xiv allows for each class to be customized according to whatever the needs are to achieve a given objective. Again, what is the problem here? Do other players really need to be told, in no uncertain terms, what their duties will be for every activity?

Consider, if you will, a situation where I join behest as a con and it just so happens that the other participants are all melee DD builds with the exception of one melee tank build. Wonderful, I can adjust my actions to perform a more support and healing based role and we're set.

Same situation, but consider that instead of having a versatile con at my disposal I am now locked into a role as a strict and pure DD caster (blm). Oh well, looks like we have no one who can cure, and now we're all toast.

Same situation again, but consider now that the party consists of conjurers. If they were all pure and unadulterated blm then we're going to have one hell of a time getting anything done. Without the cures, or at least buffs, from a whm or a rdm sub, if not a dedicated support role player, blms in xi were pretty much useless.

With the xiv system those same players, who would have been in a very difficult situation had they all been playing with a strictly pure blm, now have versatile and customizable cons at their disposal and are able to discuss a strategy amongst themselves and decide who will be responsible for fulfilling each role in the party (healing, DD, support) and performing those various duties.

I really don't understand how being able to select actions from across multiple classes is a fundamentally different concept from having a main job and a sub job. In xiv your actions associated with your main class receive a slight bonus in terms of effectiveness, recast timers and the like, while actions from other classes are generally similarly restricted. In xi you had access to all of the abilities of your main job up to your current level, as well as many of the abilities of your sub job up to half of that same level. Smells just about the same to me.

One suggestion had to do with reverting to a system basically the same as that in xi, that of having rdm, whm and blm. I don't see how this would fix the situation, or even effectively change it. If anything, that arrangement would only be more restrictive. By having classes that can be healing, dd or support, xiv allows for more versatility within a class without requiring multiple classes be taken to max level.

Several posters mentioned the need for a dedicated healer. I could not agree more with Alicia_WM: if you want to be a dedicated healer take both con and thm to 50 and build your actions around healing.

Another complaint had to do with the lack of unique spells between xi and xiv. I have the original Final Fantasy for NES on my shelf over there. /points. In that game there are spells like cure and fire. I didn't see a single complaint that cure has existed in many forms, sometimes under slightly different names, throughout nearly every title in the FF series. Unique spells will be largely impossible to create, sure, they could have funny names but the concepts would still be the same. You could call the concept of restoring HP through reducing your own MP a Rumplestiltskin, but it`s still the same concept as a cure spell and nothing has really changed.

I concur wholeheartedly with Neptune, splitting the mages into more classes, each of which would be less functional than the current con and thm, is not going to accomplish anything.

From what I`ve read, white mage has been discussed as a possible name to be adopted, which does not necessarily mean anything other the name has been considered. It certainly does not imply that the current mage classes will be disassembled in favour of more xi style mages.

Traditionally, whm has indeed had the best cure potency. However I contend that outside of very context-specific uses (banish or cure v. undead mobs) whm nukes are basically useless. Fully merited banish with some support gear for a light-based MB against an appropriate mob could do some dmg, but by and large, whm rarely used any kind of direct damage spells. Regen, Haste, Erase, Cure, Nap....lather, rinse, repeat.

As far as having more restricted classes being the more traditional style of Final Fantasy, again, I have to respectfully disagree. There have been several installments of FF where nearly every ability could be used by nearly any character. There are usually some restrictions on this, and there are even titles where abilities are very restricted; but to try and claim that either style is the more traditional or pure FF style seems unfounded and quite unprovable.

My last two points are directed at MagicofGaia:

Do you realize that the phrase "in lieu of" is meant to mean "instead of" or "in place of"? I ask because you present your arguments and then open your conclusion with "in lue of", which implies that your conclusion should be a suggested replacement for your arguments where instead it is an affirmation of them.

Also, you claim that splitting con into multiple classes "...'WILL' give role ambiguity...". I think what you are trying to accomplish is a reduction in role ambiguity. You seem to want your mage jobs to have a more defined role. Ambiguity is something which is unclear or uncertain. I suspect you may be trying to 'REDUCE' role ambiguity.

Every FF game is different from every other FF game, that is part of the beauty of the series. To claim that everything in xiv is broken and needs to be fixed when the game is still in its infancy is an overly broad statement. To say that everything can be made better by doing it in the same manner as in a previous title is an oversimplification.

Communication, responsibility, versatility and choice. These are the hallmarks of xiv. You have to be able to communicate effective with your fellow players, organize yourselves and work together as a team. You have to know your responsibilities within that team dynamic. You have to be versatile and flexible enough to fill different roles based on the situation and objectives, and to fill multiple roles at the same time. You have to be able to make a choice, decide how to make yourself as effective and useful as possible, and use those strengths to your advantage.

This is how you fix the classes in xiv.

TL;DR you are lazy! wtf are you doing reading forums and complaining about the length of the posts. act like you have some common sense and three brain cells to rub together or gtfo.

My problems stem from the 'OP' nature of the class. I have no problems with versatility, don't mistake me. Versatile is wonderful.

Yes, I had some issues with a couple vocabulary words. I've been facepalming a lot while reading the forums, and it was a bit late for me, but I digress.

They will be looking at limiting cross class spells, and 'reducing' the ambiguity issues some people have complained about.

Con itself I have no direct trouble's with. I like my Conjurer. Just in respect of the final fantasy series, for a base class it seems a little overpowered with no current cross class skill restrictions and it's high aptitude for both DPS and Healing.

[LongshotAlbion]

Excellent points Kinsey and Zeref. The great thing about cons and thaums is the versatility! Lets not split anything up until we know what the future holds with the battle system and the guilds. Its more than likely that in the future were going to see more spells and abilities that you can buy with conjurer points. And as Kinsey said, there is an arcanists guild. Perhaps were going to see more customization that takes us down the road of the whm or blm classes as we choose.

[Fios]

Hunkamunka ..... I'm with you totally.

Magicofgaia ...... I'm missing where in your quote he says they will be limiting anything.

I've found when I'm nuking and am missing a cure on someone/party (I hate when that happens), someone else in the party casts an AOE cure and I get red in the face because I know I'll hear a remark on how I missed a cure. I like being a dedicated mage of either type so conj or thum works for me now because in both jobs I can dedicate myself to healing or blasting. As I've posted in another forum listing... it's my opinion with communication and some forthought you don't even *need* a dedicated healer.

So now the rub is... with very little end game it's impossible to tell what the future holds for conj/thum etc. I fully expect to see posts 3 years from now calling me an idiot.

[Poppa]

I have posted in other forums about this idea...graduating when you reach a certain rank.

I am a conjurer, when I reach rank 50 I would like to have the option of either being a whm or blm. When I choose either of those I would get bonuses to my healing or nuking.

I would like the graduating system implemented it would seem vintage to me. I remember when I had a whm and achieved a certain lvl I would become a wizard.

[Periwinkle]

I tend to compare Conj to Sch very often. I feel that conj is just an easier version of sch. Sch was great because you could access whm and blm spells, but you had limitations. Your dmg output wasnt as great as a BLM's unless you activated certain books. Same thing with healing spells. So managing your books became the big challenge for SCH. I just dont feel that kind of challenge on Conj. The only challenge I have in group play (i only do leves now in groups) is actually getting a nuke cast before the mob dies. I feel like my nukes aren't worth the time.

I think they could leave conj alone, and make a separate whm class with better heals, and a blm class with better nukes and leave conj as the sch class. Maybe start making more moves class specific so that certain things that define a class are only used on that class. Ex: if WHM gets cure IV, then its WHM only. or is BLM gets Freeze II its BLM only. and maybe put refresh and haste in and make them THM and CONJ only. but thats my 2 cents.

[Tsuga]

Q. You have also mentioned the possible introduction of traditional names. How do you see these new names fitting into the existing class system? Do you plan on using the new names as a guide to develop class uniqueness?

A. Yoshida-san is between two possible plans at this time. The first idea is that the traditional names would be introduced as “higher” or “advanced” classes. The traditional classes would thus be something of a goal for players. The second idea is that the traditional names would be more of a subset or specialization within the existing classes.

Whatever change is put into effect needs to be right. He recognizes that he will not be able to change the system again after this, so whatever is put into place needs to work, and be able to be balanced, for years to come. Because of this his team is giving this issue a lot of thought prior to implementation.

http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2011/03/0...naoki-yoshida/

They aren't even considering splitting/changing any of the current classes. That would be retarded, and would alienate people like ME who like using both black magic and white magic, because splitting classes would mean I'd either be forced to play White Mage or Black Mage - whatever SE determined that CON would be turned into. That's not how you please a player base.

SE's idea is better than the OP's, this thread is moot.

[MagicofGaia]

I tend to compare Conj to Sch very often. I feel that conj is just an easier version of sch. Sch was great because you could access whm and blm spells, but you had limitations. Your dmg output wasnt as great as a BLM's unless you activated certain books. Same thing with healing spells. So managing your books became the big challenge for SCH. I just dont feel that kind of challenge on Conj. The only challenge I have in group play (i only do leves now in groups) is actually getting a nuke cast before the mob dies. I feel like my nukes aren't worth the time.

I think they could leave conj alone, and make a separate whm class with better heals, and a blm class with better nukes and leave conj as the sch class. Maybe start making more moves class specific so that certain things that define a class are only used on that class. Ex: if WHM gets cure IV, then its WHM only. or is BLM gets Freeze II its BLM only. and maybe put refresh and haste in and make them THM and CONJ only. but thats my 2 cents.

I agree to this. I was just having a conversation yesterday where we were comparing Conj to a simplified SCH.

If they keep Conj the way it is (for the most part) and later implement a different class that is more potent in Healing or DPS magic I would be happy.

[Favz]

People like to different roles.
A game where a class are flexible, you may suffer that like to play in a not-usually way.
The reason for this is communication, as many has stated above.
If you join a group and people thinks that you should play in one way and you play in another way there is friction.

To make communication easier I think advanced classes is a good choice.
My suggestion for is that you use the same system that is use in D&D for School specialization.
The basic principle is this you have the option to voluntarily give up your access some types of magic, and then get bigger strength in another part.

I think Conjurer should have 4 advanced classes that gives it flavor.
- One that focus on direct damage from distance
- One that focus on controlling the enemies.
- One that focus on summoning.
- One that focus on healing.
And that it should exist one generalist.

By choosing the advance class that is focus on (direct) damage you gain a bonus on all you (direct) damage spells at the expense of not being able to
use any healing or Crowd control spells.
By choosing the advance class that is focus on controlling the enemies you gain a bonus on all you Crowd control at the expense of not being able to
use any healing or Damage spells spells.
By choosing the advance class that is focus on summoning you gain a bonus on all you summoning at the expense of not being able to use any healing or
Damage spells spells.
By choosing the advance class that is focus on healing you gain a bonus on all you healing at the expense of not being able to use any summoning or
Damage spells spells.

You would then have 5 advanced classes for Conjurer
Elementalist - focus on elemental damage
Green Mage - focus on controlling the enemies
Summoner - focus on summoning .
White Mage - focus on healing
Scholar - "the generalist"

[Laughlyn]

You would then have 5 advanced classes for Conjurer
Elementalist - focus on elemental damage
Green Mage - focus on controlling the enemies
Summoner - focus on summoning .
White Mage - focus on healing
Scholar - "the generalist"

Nothing classical about "Elementalist" at all,
scratch that stupid word & put in the real one.... BLACK MAGE !!
Elementalist...lol sounds like an electrician ffs.

Bluemage should be on that lsit aswell, same for Red Mage.