Tank End Game

[Kitru]

Warriors can use Overpower and Steel Cyclone as well as Flash; they will grab AoE hate faster than Paladins. Paladins get the "Riot Blade" combo; so they will be able to keep AoE hate longer than Warriors.

Flash for a WAR is worthless because WAR has the lowest MP out of any class in the entire game. The only reason that it *used* to be useful was because it was instant and Overpower wasn't. With the 2.1 animation speed increase to Overpower, Flash is pretty much entirely pointless.

As to PLD v. WAR for AoE enmity, WAR will always win out over PLD for AoE enmity: Flash simply doesn't generate anywhere near as much as Overpower or Steel Cyclone. If all you do is Flash spam and then Riot Blade>Flash when you run out of mp, you'll still generate less than a WAR will spamming Overpower and then using Overpower as soon as you get the TP back (you get 50 TP/GCD; Overpower costs 130, which means that you wait ~2.6 GCDs to use it; Overpower generates roughly twice as much enmity per use as Flash). A WAR will be able to match PLD AoE enmity just using Steel Cyclone at 5 Wrath stacks: Steel Cyclone generates ~3 times as much potency as Flash does and can be used every 7-8 attacks (plus an extra one every minute if you use Infuriate), whereas you only get 3 Flashes every 9 attacks.

WAR beats out PLD on AoE enmity not matter how you do it.

For Single target Hate, technically Warriors can generate more than Paladins if they only use their "Butchers Block" combo... however the ideal Warrior combo rotation uses Storm's eye and/or Storm's path to inflict debuffs; so in most fights a Paladin will pull ahead. Realistically it shouldn't matter, since hate generation was made a non-issue by patch 2.1 buffing the tanking stance's enmity multipliers.

Not even remotely true. PLD has better ST enmity in every condition. The best WAR ST enmity generation rotation is SE>BB>BB>BB, which generates ~850 ePot/GCD; RoH spam for a PLD generates ~870. The only time that a WAR has an enmity advantage is in the first 30 seconds, if they're using their CDs properly. The best WAR tanking rotation, however, is SE>SP>BB, which generates ~595 ePot/GCD so a PLD is going to generate significantly more than a WAR assuming that WAR is actually using the proper rotation since WAR doesn't use its high enmity combo all the time.

(all numbers taken from the math I did here)

[Maelwys]

WAR will always win out over PLD for AoE enmity
WAR beats out PLD on AoE enmity not matter how you do it.
PLD has better AoE enmity in every condition.

Both of these statements cannot be true simultaneously.

Flash for a WAR is worthless because WAR has the lowest MP out of any class in the entire game. The only reason that it *used* to be useful was because it was instant and Overpower wasn't. With the 2.1 animation speed increase to Overpower, Flash is pretty much entirely pointless.

My point was that WARs have more AoE tools avalable. Personally, I still equip Flash on my War in certain fights, because it can be used to pull instant aggro on things that you can't yet target (Soldier/Knight Drops on T4, for example) I realise that Steel Cyclone can serve the same purpose... but I'll usually want to keep Infuriate for Unchained or Inner Beast.

I appreciate the correction on AoE Enmity generation over time. However:

"For Single target Hate, technically Warriors can generate more than Paladins if they only use their "Butchers Block" combo... "

"Not even remotely true."

Paladin
150x1 (FB)
200x3 (SB)
260x5 (RoH)
=2050 (/3=683.33 Enmity/GCD)

Warrior
150x1 (HS)
200x3 (SS)
280x5 (BB)
=2150 (/3=716.67 Enmity/GCD)

My point was that WARs can pull ahead of PLDs in enmity generation. Not that it's an ideal thing to do in regular Tanking situations, just that it's a possibility. I regularly out-threat other Tanks for giggles on the final boss of CT.

however the ideal Warrior combo rotation uses Storm's eye and/or Storm's path to inflict debuffs; so in most fights a Paladin will pull ahead.

a PLD is going to generate significantly more than a WAR assuming that WAR is actually using the proper rotation since WAR doesn't use its high enmity combo all the time.

...isn't that exactly what I just said?

A Warrior usually doesn't just spam the Butchers Block combo, but uses the other combos to inflict debuffs depending on whether they want to deal more DPS and/or take less damage. Whereas Paladins tend to just spam the RoH combo and off-GCD abilities.

Kitru, I respect your maths... but sometimes you seem to go looking for an argument where there really isn't one.

Problem with Monk solo silence is that Monk has to be either amazing or completely stop DPS just to silence. Also the melee AOE that he has to avoid.

As another note, SCH can silence with Selene, but Selene can't be in the middle of casting Embrace since both Embrace and the silence use the GCD.

Also lolPharosSirius

Hee! After using my Paladin for most of Coil and only getting my Warrior up to full i90 in time for T5; the things I really miss on WAR are the utility skills like Silences. And Selene's silence (like the Summoner Egi Stuns) is annoyingly ridiculous to have on their GCD >.<

[Kitru]

Both of these statements cannot be true simultaneously.

The third statement was a typo on my part. The context should have made it pretty obvious given that I was only referencing ST rotations and attacks.

Paladin
150x1 (FB)
200x3 (SB)
260x5 (RoH)
=2050 (/3=683.33 Enmity/GCD)

Warrior
150x1 (HS)
200x3 (SS)
280x5 (BB)
=2150 (/3=716.67 Enmity/GCD)

My point was that WARs can pull ahead of PLDs in enmity generation. Not that it's an ideal thing to do in regular Tanking situations, just that it's a possibility. I regularly out-threat other Tanks for giggles on the final boss of CT.

Except that your math ignores the 25% debuff of Defiance compared to the 20% debuff of Shield Oath. Factor that in and you get 546.67 ((150 + 200 *3 + 260 * 5) / 3 * .8) and 537.5 ((150 + 200 *3 + 280 * 5) / 3 * .75). If you're going to make conjecture using math, at least make sure you're using the proper conversions so that you can actually compare apples to apples. If you don't account for Defiance/Shield Oath, each point of potency that a WAR gets is worth 1.067 points for a PLD.

Kitru, I respect your maths... but sometimes you seem to go looking for an argument where there really isn't one.

Except that your arguments were wrong as was your math. Both of them needed to be corrected. It's not picking a fight when I'm outright correcting you for not doing the math correctly.

You claimed that WAR could beat PLD ST enmity with just BB spam. Not only is BB spam not the best ST enmity rotation for WARs, it doesn't even amount to more than a PLD can put out. WAR can never beat PLD enmity over time, assuming they're both playing properly, because of Shield Oath having a lower damage penalty. The only time a WAR beats a PLD on ST enmity is in burst enmity generation because WAR can throw up Unchained + Berserk + Maim + SE + Internal Release all at once for a massive increase in enmity for 2-3 BB combos in a row.

You claimed that PLD had an AoE enmity advantage over time, which is, once again, blatantly false. Flash is simply too weak compared to the insanity of 2.1 Overpower and Steel Cyclone. PLD doesn't even have a spam use advantage over WAR since, in a purely AoE situation, a WAR can spam Overpower just as often as a PLD can throw out Fast>Riot>Flash.

There is absolutely nothing that a PLD can do to match WAR AoE enmity just like there is nothing that a WAR can do to match PLD ST enmity generation. Gear being equal, the only reason that a PLD is going to get AoE aggro off of a WAR or a WAR is going to get ST aggro off of a PLD is if the WAR (in the first case) or the PLD (in the second case) is doing something wrong (either that or the one pulling aggro is Provoking right before starting their burst enmity rotation immediately after the other tank has ended their burst enmity rotation).

[Maelwys]

Except that
Except that
wrong
outright correcting you
You claimed
You claimed
blatantly false

This is the reason I mentioned that I've observed you having a tendency to go "looking for an argument" .
I fully admit that you often raise very valid points, but the language you use whenever you call anyone out on math is nearly always highly confrontational.

I'm not asking for ice cream and fluffy bunnies (anyone posting to a public forum should be able to take a little bashing, and I tend to be quite thick-skinned) but defaulting to a slightly less toxic tone might go a long way. Perhaps something along the lines of a simple "I think you forgot to account for [mechanic X] in these calculations, whenever you include this it actually works out this way instead" without having to imply a silent "dumbass" at the end...?

Seriously though, these forums are largely unregulated: we get enough snark from trolls without regular additions from someone who tends to actually have something worthwhile to contribute.

As an example: is it really so hard/degrading to (even curtly) apologise for making a typo instead of implying it to be the other person's fault for pointing it out? Especially whenever

Gear being equal, the only reason that a PLD is going to get AoE aggro off of a WAR or a WAR is going to get AoE aggro off of a PLD

you do it again in the very next comment...

there is nothing that a WAR can do to match PLD ST enmity generation.

I agree when it comes to regular tanking ability rotations.

It's true that the numbers I used above were for raw potency, and ignored buffs and the tanking stance. I ignored the stance modifier differences because using Unchained on cooldown in Defiance basically offsets the difference in Damage from Shield Oath (working out to an average of 79.167% over time versus 80% - still slightly in the PLD's favour but close enough for normal estimation purposes, especially when you factor in the +Crit from Wrath stacks). I will admit that this is not usually the most ideal way to spend Wrath stacks in terms of mitigation; but it does even out the enmity gains when directly comparing the stance mechanics from the Paladin and Warrior jobs.

It's true though that whenever you add in other buffs things shift: Paladins inherit 'Fight or Flight' from Gladiator, which grants demonstrably better damage than Warrior's 'Berserk' inherited from Marauder; putting Paladins back on top - even 'Internal Release' from Pugilist doesn't even things out. However if you start using a rotation which keeps Maim and Storm's Eye up whilst spamming the enmity combos then Warriors become much better off unless you have one of each tank focussing on the same target simultaneously.

It's also true that in real-game situations you'll essentially never come into a situation where any of this is relevant. This is because both tanks have a ridiculously easy time keeping hate from any non-tank; and tanks really shouldn't be directly competing for each other on hate (they should be focussing on different targets, or one should be off tanking).

In fact the only time I ever come across a tanking situation where I genuinely have to struggle to hold aggro is whenever I am on my Warrior, am Main Tanking, and have a Paladin constantly spamming their RoH combo on my mob... and personally I believe this to be more a game design issue (for making the RoH combo so strong both utility and DPS-wise, and the Riot Blade combo largely useless and a bigger TP loss) than a player skill issue on the part of the Paladin. When off tanking; Warriors can rotate Storm's Path and Storm's Eye to vastly reduce their hate gain, but all Paladins have to fall back on is Riot Blade and Stoneskin spam.

[whiskeybravo]

In fact the only time I ever come across a tanking situation where I genuinely have to struggle to hold aggro is whenever I am on my Warrior, am Main Tanking, and have a Paladin constantly spamming their RoH combo on my mob... .

I think that's still the PLD fault.. I always turn off Defiance/Shield Oath if I'm not actually tanking something (cept on Titan Ex so far, I'll start out in DPS stance but once we start swapping I just leave it up). I've never pulled aggro with RoH spam in Sword Oath, and really I've only done a handful of times with War (Maim>SE>Berserk>BB spam)