Tank End Game

[Augument]

So now I'm wondering if I shuold reroll as a warrior. what I so far understand Warrior has, more dmg (for holding aggro) MUCH more hp, sel heals that doesen't comsume hp, they are better paried with Whie Mages (MY friend is rolling white mage so..) Due to the fact whitemages strong heals and Warrior massive amount of hp.
They can hold aggro better of larger parties but are somewhat slighty worse at single target. They also have some lockdowns.
Paladins got the shield which blocks incoming dmg (physical) Better with the Scholars, they have a hughe amount of defensive buffs in thier arsenal, as earlier said good on tanking single targets, THey have a self Esuna wich removes some lockdown on themselves. THey can be used to heal another party member if the main healer is to busy, they can also heal themselves but ic consumes mana which is resored by your TP ability.

[Augument]

PAladin's are more easy I've heard but think of the fact that I'm a really good tank with Paladin and a really good tank with warrior so in the end the skill cap isn't in this equation. But it's always fun to play the harder roll. (Isn't that why most ppl play druid?

So in the end I'm at a passage here and dunno wich way to walk so I've got some Qs for ya,

Which class is more needed?
Which class is preferable?
Which class is least played?
Warrior or Paladin?
Think about END gmae!

P.S I prob got a tons of spelling misstakes but seriously this isn't English leasson and I think everyone is bright enough to understand what I want from this post so, I'll hope you speak up cause I care for every Tank-related statement =)

[Yunnie]

PAladin's are more easy I've heard but think of the fact that I'm a really good tank with Paladin and a really good tank with warrior so in the end the skill cap isn't in this equation. But it's always fun to play the harder roll. (Isn't that why most ppl play druid?

So in the end I'm at a passage here and dunno wich way to walk so I've got some Qs for ya,

Which class is more needed?
Which class is preferable?
Which class is least played?
Warrior or Paladin?
Think about END gmae!

P.S I prob got a tons of spelling misstakes but seriously this isn't English leasson and I think everyone is bright enough to understand what I want from this post so, I'll hope you speak up cause I care for every Tank-related statement =)

I noticed your a level 35 gladiator, so being really good is all relative. Now, I'm not trying to flame you- I just want to point this out, because the difficulty of dungeons sky rocket after level 50.

Anyway, you bring up end game, so I will give my thoughts on this matter. I do not have a warrior @50, but I do have a paladin.

1) Both classes are needed because they are both tanks

2) Generally paladins have an easier time getting into parties just due to easy of play. Warriors are often "viewed" as a harder class to master, where as paladins are "viewed" as an easy 123 class. Now I'm not saying all a paladin must do is 123 to be a pro, but someone with less skill can still do their function without having to try to hard. (Since I personally dont have a warrior, I cant tell you if warriors are actually a harder class to master).

3) On my server, there are more paladins, then there are warriors.

4) What ever class u find funner or more appealing

5) end game? both have been proven viable for endgame.

[SpinOff]

The tank classes are currently very well balanced. Each one has it's situations where it might be a little more useful than the other, but both can do all the content as MT or OT. The general idea is if the fight has more consistent dmg then Paladins shine but if the fight has spike dmg periods Warriors shine. Both just as useful than the other. Really depends on your group makeup how you wanna go. Play whichever one is most fun for you.

[Kuwagami]

which class is more needed ? None. They are both good and every good group (aka group that can handle mechanics) have both or can have both (some prefer double pld for some obscure reasons)

Which class is preferable ? The one you'll enjoy to play, obviously. Which also answers your 4th question

Which class is less played ? Was WAR in 2.0. Way less accurate to say that since 2.1

Side note : don't say you're a "really good" paladin or warrior when you are lv 30 on one and 5 on the other ^^ Wait for the difficult content to come, as this is no WoW.

Also, WARs may have more damage, but they don't have more aggro than plds. On solo target they are equal. Also, saying that WARs have more hp (thus making better tanks because more survivability) is only true until pld lv 40, as you'll get a perma-20% damage reduction which totally nullifies the advantage of more hp. Also, this difference makes warriors more difficult to heal as they need more heal than paladin to get on top.

On the same side, your statement about healers have to be reverted WHM are PLD's best friends, and scholars love warriors (lustrate heals for a good ammount on warriors). But in the end, it's mostly a matter of habits.

Other (slight) thing : pld's heals are totally worthless, better take stoneskin (lv34 WHM) and forget about the heal.

[Shref]

Also, WARs may have more damage, but they don't have more aggro than plds. Due to things like overpower and steel cyclone, this is not true. esp for groups. flash does nowhere near the aggro of either of these. On solo target they are equal. Also, saying that WARs have more hp (thus making better tanks because more survivability) is only true until pld lv 40, as you'll get a perma-20% damage reduction which totally nullifies the advantage of more hp. Also, this difference makes warriors more difficult to heal as they need more heal than paladin to get on top.Defiance also gives a healing boost to account for the extra hp

i pretty much never do this, but see above. some information that I needed to correct.

[Maelwys]

Also, WARs may have more damage, but they don't have more aggro than plds. Due to things like overpower and steel cyclone, this is not true. esp for groups. flash does nowhere near the aggro of either of these. also, from most of what i've seen, pld's actually can do more damage. i've never parsed this though. On solo target they are equal. Also, saying that WARs have more hp (thus making better tanks because more survivability) is only true until pld lv 40, as you'll get a perma-20% damage reduction which totally nullifies the advantage of more hp. Also, this difference makes warriors more difficult to heal as they need more heal than paladin to get on top. Defiance also gives a healing boost to account for the extra hp

i pretty much never do this, but see above. some information that I needed to correct.

Warriors can use Overpower and Steel Cyclone as well as Flash; they will grab AoE hate faster than Paladins. Paladins get the "Riot Blade" combo; so they will be able to keep AoE hate longer than Warriors. For Single target Hate, technically Warriors can generate more than Paladins if they only use their "Butchers Block" combo... however the ideal Warrior combo rotation uses Storm's eye and/or Storm's path to inflict debuffs; so in most fights a Paladin will pull ahead. Realistically it shouldn't matter, since hate generation was made a non-issue by patch 2.1 buffing the tanking stance's enmity multipliers.

For damage, Warriors do considerably more AoE; and Paladins have a slight edge in spike DPS due to all the Off GCD attacks (even with Inner Beast). In terms of damage over time, WARs have a slight edge when solo (due to debuffs) and are basically equal to Paladins whenever you have one of each tank both focussing on the same target.

Regarding Defiance vs Shield Oath - Defiance grants +20% Healing, but Shield Oath grants +25% effective health... so there is a (very slight) tilt in the Paladin's Favour in terms of survivability from the tanking stances. Warrior can recover HP with Inner Beast though; and can get a decent amount of +Crit stacked up even when tanking due to stacks. They're very close in terms of real in-game performance.

[Kitru]

Warriors can use Overpower and Steel Cyclone as well as Flash; they will grab AoE hate faster than Paladins. Paladins get the "Riot Blade" combo; so they will be able to keep AoE hate longer than Warriors.

Flash for a WAR is worthless because WAR has the lowest MP out of any class in the entire game. The only reason that it *used* to be useful was because it was instant and Overpower wasn't. With the 2.1 animation speed increase to Overpower, Flash is pretty much entirely pointless.

As to PLD v. WAR for AoE enmity, WAR will always win out over PLD for AoE enmity: Flash simply doesn't generate anywhere near as much as Overpower or Steel Cyclone. If all you do is Flash spam and then Riot Blade>Flash when you run out of mp, you'll still generate less than a WAR will spamming Overpower and then using Overpower as soon as you get the TP back (you get 50 TP/GCD; Overpower costs 130, which means that you wait ~2.6 GCDs to use it; Overpower generates roughly twice as much enmity per use as Flash). A WAR will be able to match PLD AoE enmity just using Steel Cyclone at 5 Wrath stacks: Steel Cyclone generates ~3 times as much potency as Flash does and can be used every 7-8 attacks (plus an extra one every minute if you use Infuriate), whereas you only get 3 Flashes every 9 attacks.

WAR beats out PLD on AoE enmity not matter how you do it.

For Single target Hate, technically Warriors can generate more than Paladins if they only use their "Butchers Block" combo... however the ideal Warrior combo rotation uses Storm's eye and/or Storm's path to inflict debuffs; so in most fights a Paladin will pull ahead. Realistically it shouldn't matter, since hate generation was made a non-issue by patch 2.1 buffing the tanking stance's enmity multipliers.

Not even remotely true. PLD has better ST enmity in every condition. The best WAR ST enmity generation rotation is SE>BB>BB>BB, which generates ~850 ePot/GCD; RoH spam for a PLD generates ~870. The only time that a WAR has an enmity advantage is in the first 30 seconds, if they're using their CDs properly. The best WAR tanking rotation, however, is SE>SP>BB, which generates ~595 ePot/GCD so a PLD is going to generate significantly more than a WAR assuming that WAR is actually using the proper rotation since WAR doesn't use its high enmity combo all the time.

(all numbers taken from the math I did here)

[Maelwys]

WAR will always win out over PLD for AoE enmity
WAR beats out PLD on AoE enmity not matter how you do it.
PLD has better AoE enmity in every condition.

Both of these statements cannot be true simultaneously.

Flash for a WAR is worthless because WAR has the lowest MP out of any class in the entire game. The only reason that it *used* to be useful was because it was instant and Overpower wasn't. With the 2.1 animation speed increase to Overpower, Flash is pretty much entirely pointless.

My point was that WARs have more AoE tools avalable. Personally, I still equip Flash on my War in certain fights, because it can be used to pull instant aggro on things that you can't yet target (Soldier/Knight Drops on T4, for example) I realise that Steel Cyclone can serve the same purpose... but I'll usually want to keep Infuriate for Unchained or Inner Beast.

I appreciate the correction on AoE Enmity generation over time. However:

"For Single target Hate, technically Warriors can generate more than Paladins if they only use their "Butchers Block" combo... "

"Not even remotely true."

Paladin
150x1 (FB)
200x3 (SB)
260x5 (RoH)
=2050 (/3=683.33 Enmity/GCD)

Warrior
150x1 (HS)
200x3 (SS)
280x5 (BB)
=2150 (/3=716.67 Enmity/GCD)

My point was that WARs can pull ahead of PLDs in enmity generation. Not that it's an ideal thing to do in regular Tanking situations, just that it's a possibility. I regularly out-threat other Tanks for giggles on the final boss of CT.

however the ideal Warrior combo rotation uses Storm's eye and/or Storm's path to inflict debuffs; so in most fights a Paladin will pull ahead.

a PLD is going to generate significantly more than a WAR assuming that WAR is actually using the proper rotation since WAR doesn't use its high enmity combo all the time.

...isn't that exactly what I just said?

A Warrior usually doesn't just spam the Butchers Block combo, but uses the other combos to inflict debuffs depending on whether they want to deal more DPS and/or take less damage. Whereas Paladins tend to just spam the RoH combo and off-GCD abilities.

Kitru, I respect your maths... but sometimes you seem to go looking for an argument where there really isn't one.

Problem with Monk solo silence is that Monk has to be either amazing or completely stop DPS just to silence. Also the melee AOE that he has to avoid.

As another note, SCH can silence with Selene, but Selene can't be in the middle of casting Embrace since both Embrace and the silence use the GCD.

Also lolPharosSirius

Hee! After using my Paladin for most of Coil and only getting my Warrior up to full i90 in time for T5; the things I really miss on WAR are the utility skills like Silences. And Selene's silence (like the Summoner Egi Stuns) is annoyingly ridiculous to have on their GCD >.<

[Kuwagami]

i pretty much never do this, but see above. some information that I needed to correct.

as fas as I know, overpower generates the same ammount of hate than flash, just being conal instead of circle AoE. On the same side, a full CoS should be around the potency of steel cyclone (except if DoT's ticks don't benefit from shield oath bonus in enmity)

Also, the %heal boost of defiance does not match the increase in hp. The little difference, for what that matters, is filled by inner beast if you repeat it every time it's available. Personally I don't mind the 200 hp heal I lose over my pld mate, that's a little overheal my healer can do.