Is there an unneeded hostility towards regular classes in this game?

[Ryuko]

Don't give me orders to stop posting anywhere on here like I need to follow anyone's authority, none of you are the master over anyone no matter how puffed up your ego is because of what you know about the game.

I can't control you, nor am I commanding you. Maybe I was unclear when I expressed my opinion that you should stop posting. It's pretty clear that either your points aren't being heard or you just aren't going to get anything else out of this thread. You're just going to get the same responses over and over again, which you seem to realize pretty well know. Anyway, to answer your... "Why it was not possible or even a noticed thing that it can be done in some dungeons and the like without problems?" The answer is, clearly, time and dps. Again, you recognize that arcanist dps is lower (that is what people are repeating -- but I don't think you realize WHY that matters)... a lot of players are impatient and want to beat a dungeon ASAP. I still remember the days when people did AK/WP runs and wouldn't even let people join unless they had a relic weapon... so if you know the dps of arcanist is much lower, that is the reason people don't want arcanist in dungeon groups post-30. (Well, you don't get Fester until 35 so it could be argued that arcanist is okay until 35, but that's a topic for another discussion.) The healing buffs of cross-class abilities don't matter because all dungeons can be solo-healed, and even many 8-man trials can be solo healed.

Another example... a WHM's job is to heal, right? A lot of players are impatient and won't invite a WHM to dungeons if that WHM will not AoE damage (Holy spam). Even some trials greatly benefit the uses of AoE Holy spam. As a secondary WHM, I holy spam if it helps (particularly on plumes in Garuda extreme). Technically it is not in the WHM's job description to dps, but people expect a WHM to dps if it will help a fight go faster/smoother. I bring up the healing issue because this was something that was super controversial when players started asking healers to help DPS. Some healers were ok with it while others were not. So, following that same mentality... people expect you to choose the best gear/abilities suited for a dungeon... and that includes the highest damage and fastest run. Can you still beat a dungeon with arcanist dps? Sure! But it's like going into a dungeon with i70 gear rather than i90 gear because you 'like' the look of the gear better... it's an aesthetic difference, and a detrimental one... even if it doesn't directly 'cause problems' and make the dungeon impossible to beat.

Anyway, maybe you are not realizing this yet because you haven't got there... but Allagan armor isn't always *the best*. Best-in-slot items for min/maxing your stats (and yes, it really matters for overall damage and performance) are a mixture of AFv2/Allagan armor... with certain stat priorities taking precedence. Having all i90 either way is still good, but there are many ways to push your role to the highest potential.

I personally would not have booted you from CT for going as arcanist (the skill range of people who enter CT is very very large and I try not to judge in there), but I would not have seen it as something wrong if I witnessed someone else boot you. Why would I want someone making our fights longer just because he refuses to use SMN? It seems silly. Actually, it reminds me of the summoners in FFXI who refused to sub WHM because they never ever wanted to cast even one heal. Even with the nerf to T5 in 2.2, I do not see arcanist being viable for Twintania UNTIL groups start getting gear better than i90 (since the fight was designed for ~i80 gear). Unfortunately, the lack of fester is REALLY going to hit you in conflag phase, especially short ones... and dreadknights would be really annoying to kill too.

[Thorauku]

You can play how you want. The groups you get matched with also can play how they want. If what they want is not to have a gimped damage dealer, they can kick you becuz democracy.

This sums up this whole thread.

For you OP, you might as well find a group of people with same interest as yours, you'll fit there better rather than going with another people who has a different PoV than you.

[Huntington]

I can't control you, nor am I commanding you. Maybe I was unclear when I expressed my opinion that you should stop posting. It's pretty clear that either your points aren't being heard or you just aren't going to get anything else out of this thread. You're just going to get the same responses over and over again, which you seem to realize pretty well know. Anyway, to answer your... "Why it was not possible or even a noticed thing that it can be done in some dungeons and the like without problems?" The answer is, clearly, time and dps. Again, you recognize that arcanist dps is lower (that is what people are repeating -- but I don't think you realize WHY that matters)... a lot of players are impatient and want to beat a dungeon ASAP. I still remember the days when people did AK/WP runs and wouldn't even let people join unless they had a relic weapon... so if you know the dps of arcanist is much lower, that is the reason people don't want arcanist in dungeon groups post-30. (Well, you don't get Fester until 35 so it could be argued that arcanist is okay until 35, but that's a topic for another discussion.) The healing buffs of cross-class abilities don't matter because all dungeons can be solo-healed, and even many 8-man trials can be solo healed.


Another example... a WHM's job is to heal, right? A lot of players are impatient and won't invite a WHM to dungeons if that WHM will not AoE damage (Holy spam). Even some trials greatly benefit the uses of AoE Holy spam. As a secondary WHM, I holy spam if it helps (particularly on plumes in Garuda extreme). Technically it is not in the WHM's job description to dps, but people expect a WHM to dps if it will help a fight go faster/smoother. I bring up the healing issue because this was something that was super controversial when players started asking healers to help DPS. Some healers were ok with it while others were not. So, following that same mentality... people expect you to choose the best gear/abilities suited for a dungeon... and that includes the highest damage and fastest run. Can you still beat a dungeon with arcanist dps? Sure! But it's like going into a dungeon with i70 gear rather than i90 gear because you 'like' the look of the gear better... it's an aesthetic difference, and a detrimental one... even if it doesn't directly 'cause problems' and make the dungeon impossible to beat.

Anyway, maybe you are not realizing this yet because you haven't got there... but Allagan armor isn't always *the best*. Best-in-slot items for min/maxing your stats (and yes, it really matters for overall damage and performance) are a mixture of AFv2/Allagan armor... with certain stat priorities taking precedence. Having all i90 either way is still good, but there are many ways to push your role to the highest potential.

I personally would not have booted you from CT for going as arcanist (the skill range of people who enter CT is very very large and I try not to judge in there), but I would not have seen it as something wrong if I witnessed someone else boot you. Why would I want someone making our fights longer just because he refuses to use SMN? It seems silly. Actually, it reminds me of the summoners in FFXI who refused to sub WHM because they never ever wanted to cast even one heal. Even with the nerf to T5 in 2.2, I do not see arcanist being viable for Twintania UNTIL groups start getting gear better than i90 (since the fight was designed for ~i80 gear). Unfortunately, the lack of fester is REALLY going to hit you in conflag phase, especially short ones... and dreadknights would be really annoying to kill too.

So long as it's made clear. I wouldn't command or order anyone to stop telling me something even if it's something I don't like to hear, that's suppressing someone's voice and that isn't a cool thing to do to anyone, even if I may have myself deserved an impartial version of it earlier. Too bad there isn't a private messaging system from what I can see or I would have the ability to message people that are actually willing to talk and hear about something more, until then posting publicly is the only option anyone has here. I actually wish I could go back in time, get Arcanist to 45, not get Garuda, but still have access to the Summoner abilities that matter, Fester and Spur. At least that would be interesting to see. I again say that I don't have healing buffs to mainly heal myself, I can pop it in under 2 seconds and get onto something else. My priority usually is this: Bio 2 > Miasma > Bio > Aero > Miasma 2. I only pop cooldowns like that after Shining Emerald or Contagion and once the DoTs are up, everyone seems to think I wouldn't ever already have set up what I need to.

I'm aware of the Garuda plumes, Holy is very beneficial because of the wide range it has, actually one of the greatest range AoEs we have I believe. It hits very hard. All in all, despite the 15% loss people keep citing, your opinion may be lessened partially if you actually saw me play through dungeons. Not saying it would completely change your opinion, but most don't think I'm awful or unaware of what I need to be doing once they see me play once or twice. I've actually demonstrated it to a few people, one of them parsed for me and watched me wail on a dummy as he parsed me. 218 for ACN, 217 for SMN. Not lying at all. That was over a week ago when I didn't have any Allagan gear and other things. If he himself didn't speak up and say "you didn't use this move when you were supposed to," then right then and there he was actually shocked how close the damage was, if he actually meant it. *shrug*

I've only gotten a few pieces, they say I should be mixing in the Extreme rings in a place or two, yet I can't find a party that can actually go through that with me so that's not going to happen anytime soon. I've already practiced enough for it, as soon as I find a capable team, might actually be able to go past Garuda at some point.
It's not exactly a refusal, it's a preference I've gained after having ACN be my first 50 class. Went to it at 30, got Summoner as quick as possible. Was disappointed with it more and more as I went on. My sub was always WHM, of course spells were expensive and that drained my already currently being drained MP supply when I healed and such, but at least I could do a few things more. Summoner complimented other things well then, but could not often solo after they tweaked the Avatars to garner less enmity. Of course it was still my most preferred class, but it was not as enjoyable as it could be. I wouldn't think that ACN would be viable in Coil at all, I was never bold enough to make a statement like that. They're going to break the ceiling with the gear anyways, probably going to be a max of 120 item level after the next big addition. Maybe a petition to buff Carbuncle is in order...

[scarebearz]

A good Arc could out-dps a bad Smn.

But a good Smn would far out-dps a good Arc.

By choosing to do poorer dps, it's very understandable random's would kick you and many would simply think your "trolling".

In case you missed it

If you want to play Arc, don't expect everyone to accept your choice to do lower damage and make your own party's for content like CT if you want to avoid this.

This is not trolling, nor is it an ego trip, it's simply the way most see it.

[T0rin]

I've actually demonstrated it to a few people, one of them parsed for me and watched me wail on a dummy as he parsed me. 218 for ACN, 217 for SMN.

That just goes to show that you are not playing SMN very well. If you were, you'd be at 240 DPS on SMN, not 217.

Is that the issue here? You don't play SMN very well, and ACN is easier (more DoTs, less dealing with optimizing the time in between recasts?), so you do slightly better DPS as ACN, thus wonder why everyone makes so big a deal out of it?

Make a video then of your SMN and ACN dummy parses, I'll gladly help pick apart what you are doing wrong.

[SpinOff]

I refuse to believe this thread exists. Look man, why wouldn't you want to do the max DPS possible for your group? Regardless of what dungeon it is, if you are in a group setting you should want to maximize your potential. Not gimp the group. If you find Smn so underwhelming then start maining another job. Solo content base class all you want. End game group content if you don't use your job you are not doing yourself or your group any favors and I have no sympathy for you. You are hurting your group every time. Now I said my piece and that's it. I know you will refute this. I will not respond.

[EasymodeX]

This is the scrubbiest thread I've read on the forums.

I feel like I'm catching cooties by posting in it.

[Alexia89]

If we're going to pretend that their most successful and most profitable game of all time so far doesn't matter at all, which was an MMO and a clear ground-layer for a lot of things, then we should be comparing XIV to WoW instead based on what I've gotten. [/B]

Got as far into the thread as this line.
Laughed.

Wow. XI is Square Enix's most successful, huh?

[Allyrion]

Got as far into the thread as this line.
Laughed.

Wow. XI is Square Enix's most successful, huh?

Well it IS the most profitable game of the FF series at the very least.

[Cite:
http://www.egmnow.com/articles/news/...-fantasy-ever/
http://kotaku.com/5921037/the-most-p...ill-paying-for ]

Not that it's relevant or anything.

[Clavaat]

I think the main issue, OP, is that FFXI was much more ability-based compared to FFXIV. What I mean here is, your subjob was just as important as your main job. The abilities you had access were make or break for most content (shadows on ninja, buffs on rdm, etc etc). However, in FFXIV, this isn't the case so much. Classes sacrifice stats and exclusive abilities for 5 additional abilities. In order for the class to be on par with the Job, the utility and increases from the 5 additional abilities must be equal to or greater than the utility and damage from the Job abilities. With ARN, you get a few more options ability-wise that actually can give you a pretty good boost in damage, but numerically it may not stack up with the exclusive abilities from SMN.


You bring up utility, which again is an FFXI ideal. This game is less option-oriented, unfortunately (DPS does damage only, tank only tanks, heal only heals for most content). Now, if there would be a possibility for ARC to gain a silence/stun ability from another class, there would be more of an argument for utility as you could replace a BRD or something for silencing T1-2. I know you said you go as SMN for BC so I won't bother with that. Honestly, I don't know much about SMN/ARN, but I completely understand where you are coming from from a DPS and FFXI background. In order for Classes to be a more viable option, they need access to better Utility/Support abilities such as silence or stun.