Is there an unneeded hostility towards regular classes in this game?

[Ryuko]

I just got booted for no literal reason.

You were booted because you willingly gimped your dps by playing as Arcanist instead of Summoner. End of story. Perhaps you were given the boot ahead of the other people you mentioned because they can see your class instantly in the party list and thus you were easier to discern than a useless person just throwing things from far away. If I had to guess, people assumed you hadn't even unlocked summoner (otherwise why WOULD you be playing arcanist!?) and booted you because they assumed you knew next to nothing about the game, and would likely weigh the party down.

I'll say it in a nicer way than others, but I agree it is time for you to stop posting. You have your answers, and while I empathize that you want to think outside of the box (creatively), it just isn't viable... and I said this more than once. Now you are just fueling the fire and I think people are getting frustrated with the fact that you just aren't listening to reason or evidence.

[Sigred]

I think people are getting frustrated with the fact that you just aren't listening to reason or evidence.

When someone does not listen to reason, there is no evidence you can show that will convince them that they should.

[Huntington]

You were booted because you willingly gimped your dps by playing as Arcanist instead of Summoner. End of story. Perhaps you were given the boot ahead of the other people you mentioned because they can see your class instantly in the party list and thus you were easier to discern than a useless person just throwing things from far away. If I had to guess, people assumed you hadn't even unlocked summoner (otherwise why WOULD you be playing arcanist!?) and booted you because they assumed you knew next to nothing about the game, and would likely weigh the party down.
I'll say it in a nicer way than others, but I agree it is time for you to stop posting. You have your answers, and while I empathize that you want to think outside of the box (creatively), it just isn't viable... and I said this more than once. Now you are just fueling the fire and I think people are getting frustrated with the fact that you just aren't listening to reason or evidence.

I again ask why it was not possible or even a noticed thing that it can be done in some dungeons and the like without problems. There are clear places where there will be no issue using the class, and places where there can be problems because of DPS checks. I like how people keep cherry-picking these posts then assuming information while ignoring what I've said. Sure, you can lecture me as much as you want because clearly saying otherwise won't stop anyone. But if you're going to continually jump over paragraphs and insert assumptions into everything, then please take your own advice and stop telling me to do something you ask when you will continually bring up something irrelevant and uninteresting to me by this point and not follow the same path.

I no longer care what anyone has to say about the DPS percentages, I have not said "well why can't I be unique and play how I want where it works", or anything like that for awhile now. You people keep jumping in here and prodding at that over-repeated line of "why don't you recognize and realize that it does less DPS?" Have I concretely said "no you're wrong, stop saying that" and put my fingers in my ear? Not once. I've not once yet told someone to be quiet and stop destroying my "fabricated reality", though lots of you would like to assume I am. I'm playing this because it entertains me, and I've already made well and clear that I realize which places that it cannot be done and shouldn't be done. No one seems to be seeing that, so you again assume I'm just shouting at my keyboard saying "no you're wrong!" over and over instead of actually reading my posts. I even updated the OP and told you, that if you were just going to rehash something and didn't have anything new to add, that you should just not post at all. Did anyone listen to that? Not really.

Don't give me orders to stop posting anywhere on here like I need to follow anyone's authority, none of you are the master over anyone no matter how puffed up your ego is because of what you know about the game. I've made clear that I'll respectfully deign out of certain matches, then still use the class where I want when I want to actually enjoy my subscription. That's all I'm going to repeat for the umpteenth time.

Few more things:
1. Everyone cares about gear so much but never bothers to actually look at anyone and determine if they're suitable for the match.
Everyone rants on and on about their Allagan armor but they'd rather just deny other people entry to things unless their gear is just as amazing as their's is. So if they can coherently look at my gear and say "oh yeah, leveled three classes nearly to 50, level 76 item level it seems, probably played for a good long while, doesn't know what to do. Let's boot him." Then there is a lot more ignorance that I'd initially thought.
2. Min/maxing isn't that important.
With Turn 5 getting a nerf in the soon to be future, apparently all everyone is doing end-game is fighting something on Pandemonium Warden's level over and over again, it's the only thing that could make sense of such a craze over everyone having item level 90 all the time and being literally over-geared. Which is the most infallibly incorrect thing possible, so why we care or analyze or freak out over everyone having something done just like someone else does not make any sense to me. This game is not difficult, it's easy, it takes far less effort to precede through it than anyone seems to care to mention, but seemingly we might as well pretend it's as hard as programming a rocket from scratch to re-enter our planet's atmosphere using nothing but an outdated 1990's Windows PC and some weather software coupled with a Barometer.

If you'd like to stop willingly repeating yourself, stop replying to the topic, hide or ignore me, and go away. Solves everyone's problems. It isn't that difficult a concept, or does everyone enjoy flexing their brains yelling the same thing at me over and over again thinking they're giving fire to man for the first time?

[xEscaflownex]

Hmm, if it's so easy, why haven't you cleared EX's and Turn 5?

The basic concept here is that there is no acceptable place for what you are trying to do, outside of solo play, or maybe treasure hunting. You do less dmg as ACN than you do as SMN, this is the case whether you are doing Turn 5 or AK, or CT. Any and all content you are entering, you are doing so with a handicap.

However you see it, you are negatively impacting other player's experiences whether it is easy content or hard. You doing less dmg = things dying slower = dungeon/boss/etc taking longer = other players (who are doing the right thing) time wasted. Saying "I can do it here because it doesn't matter because its not an ultimate DPS check blah blah" is inaccurate.

You ARE entirely free to play as you like and do whatever it is that you enjoy, you are also free to do this on your own, running around the game alone, just as other players are free to play the game how they want (most like to kill things efficiently and not spend all day on any given fight or instance), and are free to not group with you in order to avoid the negative impact YOU have on THEIR game experience.

[Ryuko]

Don't give me orders to stop posting anywhere on here like I need to follow anyone's authority, none of you are the master over anyone no matter how puffed up your ego is because of what you know about the game.

I can't control you, nor am I commanding you. Maybe I was unclear when I expressed my opinion that you should stop posting. It's pretty clear that either your points aren't being heard or you just aren't going to get anything else out of this thread. You're just going to get the same responses over and over again, which you seem to realize pretty well know. Anyway, to answer your... "Why it was not possible or even a noticed thing that it can be done in some dungeons and the like without problems?" The answer is, clearly, time and dps. Again, you recognize that arcanist dps is lower (that is what people are repeating -- but I don't think you realize WHY that matters)... a lot of players are impatient and want to beat a dungeon ASAP. I still remember the days when people did AK/WP runs and wouldn't even let people join unless they had a relic weapon... so if you know the dps of arcanist is much lower, that is the reason people don't want arcanist in dungeon groups post-30. (Well, you don't get Fester until 35 so it could be argued that arcanist is okay until 35, but that's a topic for another discussion.) The healing buffs of cross-class abilities don't matter because all dungeons can be solo-healed, and even many 8-man trials can be solo healed.

Another example... a WHM's job is to heal, right? A lot of players are impatient and won't invite a WHM to dungeons if that WHM will not AoE damage (Holy spam). Even some trials greatly benefit the uses of AoE Holy spam. As a secondary WHM, I holy spam if it helps (particularly on plumes in Garuda extreme). Technically it is not in the WHM's job description to dps, but people expect a WHM to dps if it will help a fight go faster/smoother. I bring up the healing issue because this was something that was super controversial when players started asking healers to help DPS. Some healers were ok with it while others were not. So, following that same mentality... people expect you to choose the best gear/abilities suited for a dungeon... and that includes the highest damage and fastest run. Can you still beat a dungeon with arcanist dps? Sure! But it's like going into a dungeon with i70 gear rather than i90 gear because you 'like' the look of the gear better... it's an aesthetic difference, and a detrimental one... even if it doesn't directly 'cause problems' and make the dungeon impossible to beat.

Anyway, maybe you are not realizing this yet because you haven't got there... but Allagan armor isn't always *the best*. Best-in-slot items for min/maxing your stats (and yes, it really matters for overall damage and performance) are a mixture of AFv2/Allagan armor... with certain stat priorities taking precedence. Having all i90 either way is still good, but there are many ways to push your role to the highest potential.

I personally would not have booted you from CT for going as arcanist (the skill range of people who enter CT is very very large and I try not to judge in there), but I would not have seen it as something wrong if I witnessed someone else boot you. Why would I want someone making our fights longer just because he refuses to use SMN? It seems silly. Actually, it reminds me of the summoners in FFXI who refused to sub WHM because they never ever wanted to cast even one heal. Even with the nerf to T5 in 2.2, I do not see arcanist being viable for Twintania UNTIL groups start getting gear better than i90 (since the fight was designed for ~i80 gear). Unfortunately, the lack of fester is REALLY going to hit you in conflag phase, especially short ones... and dreadknights would be really annoying to kill too.

[Huntington]

I can't control you, nor am I commanding you. Maybe I was unclear when I expressed my opinion that you should stop posting. It's pretty clear that either your points aren't being heard or you just aren't going to get anything else out of this thread. You're just going to get the same responses over and over again, which you seem to realize pretty well know. Anyway, to answer your... "Why it was not possible or even a noticed thing that it can be done in some dungeons and the like without problems?" The answer is, clearly, time and dps. Again, you recognize that arcanist dps is lower (that is what people are repeating -- but I don't think you realize WHY that matters)... a lot of players are impatient and want to beat a dungeon ASAP. I still remember the days when people did AK/WP runs and wouldn't even let people join unless they had a relic weapon... so if you know the dps of arcanist is much lower, that is the reason people don't want arcanist in dungeon groups post-30. (Well, you don't get Fester until 35 so it could be argued that arcanist is okay until 35, but that's a topic for another discussion.) The healing buffs of cross-class abilities don't matter because all dungeons can be solo-healed, and even many 8-man trials can be solo healed.


Another example... a WHM's job is to heal, right? A lot of players are impatient and won't invite a WHM to dungeons if that WHM will not AoE damage (Holy spam). Even some trials greatly benefit the uses of AoE Holy spam. As a secondary WHM, I holy spam if it helps (particularly on plumes in Garuda extreme). Technically it is not in the WHM's job description to dps, but people expect a WHM to dps if it will help a fight go faster/smoother. I bring up the healing issue because this was something that was super controversial when players started asking healers to help DPS. Some healers were ok with it while others were not. So, following that same mentality... people expect you to choose the best gear/abilities suited for a dungeon... and that includes the highest damage and fastest run. Can you still beat a dungeon with arcanist dps? Sure! But it's like going into a dungeon with i70 gear rather than i90 gear because you 'like' the look of the gear better... it's an aesthetic difference, and a detrimental one... even if it doesn't directly 'cause problems' and make the dungeon impossible to beat.

Anyway, maybe you are not realizing this yet because you haven't got there... but Allagan armor isn't always *the best*. Best-in-slot items for min/maxing your stats (and yes, it really matters for overall damage and performance) are a mixture of AFv2/Allagan armor... with certain stat priorities taking precedence. Having all i90 either way is still good, but there are many ways to push your role to the highest potential.

I personally would not have booted you from CT for going as arcanist (the skill range of people who enter CT is very very large and I try not to judge in there), but I would not have seen it as something wrong if I witnessed someone else boot you. Why would I want someone making our fights longer just because he refuses to use SMN? It seems silly. Actually, it reminds me of the summoners in FFXI who refused to sub WHM because they never ever wanted to cast even one heal. Even with the nerf to T5 in 2.2, I do not see arcanist being viable for Twintania UNTIL groups start getting gear better than i90 (since the fight was designed for ~i80 gear). Unfortunately, the lack of fester is REALLY going to hit you in conflag phase, especially short ones... and dreadknights would be really annoying to kill too.

So long as it's made clear. I wouldn't command or order anyone to stop telling me something even if it's something I don't like to hear, that's suppressing someone's voice and that isn't a cool thing to do to anyone, even if I may have myself deserved an impartial version of it earlier. Too bad there isn't a private messaging system from what I can see or I would have the ability to message people that are actually willing to talk and hear about something more, until then posting publicly is the only option anyone has here. I actually wish I could go back in time, get Arcanist to 45, not get Garuda, but still have access to the Summoner abilities that matter, Fester and Spur. At least that would be interesting to see. I again say that I don't have healing buffs to mainly heal myself, I can pop it in under 2 seconds and get onto something else. My priority usually is this: Bio 2 > Miasma > Bio > Aero > Miasma 2. I only pop cooldowns like that after Shining Emerald or Contagion and once the DoTs are up, everyone seems to think I wouldn't ever already have set up what I need to.

I'm aware of the Garuda plumes, Holy is very beneficial because of the wide range it has, actually one of the greatest range AoEs we have I believe. It hits very hard. All in all, despite the 15% loss people keep citing, your opinion may be lessened partially if you actually saw me play through dungeons. Not saying it would completely change your opinion, but most don't think I'm awful or unaware of what I need to be doing once they see me play once or twice. I've actually demonstrated it to a few people, one of them parsed for me and watched me wail on a dummy as he parsed me. 218 for ACN, 217 for SMN. Not lying at all. That was over a week ago when I didn't have any Allagan gear and other things. If he himself didn't speak up and say "you didn't use this move when you were supposed to," then right then and there he was actually shocked how close the damage was, if he actually meant it. *shrug*

I've only gotten a few pieces, they say I should be mixing in the Extreme rings in a place or two, yet I can't find a party that can actually go through that with me so that's not going to happen anytime soon. I've already practiced enough for it, as soon as I find a capable team, might actually be able to go past Garuda at some point.
It's not exactly a refusal, it's a preference I've gained after having ACN be my first 50 class. Went to it at 30, got Summoner as quick as possible. Was disappointed with it more and more as I went on. My sub was always WHM, of course spells were expensive and that drained my already currently being drained MP supply when I healed and such, but at least I could do a few things more. Summoner complimented other things well then, but could not often solo after they tweaked the Avatars to garner less enmity. Of course it was still my most preferred class, but it was not as enjoyable as it could be. I wouldn't think that ACN would be viable in Coil at all, I was never bold enough to make a statement like that. They're going to break the ceiling with the gear anyways, probably going to be a max of 120 item level after the next big addition. Maybe a petition to buff Carbuncle is in order...

[T0rin]

I've actually demonstrated it to a few people, one of them parsed for me and watched me wail on a dummy as he parsed me. 218 for ACN, 217 for SMN.

That just goes to show that you are not playing SMN very well. If you were, you'd be at 240 DPS on SMN, not 217.

Is that the issue here? You don't play SMN very well, and ACN is easier (more DoTs, less dealing with optimizing the time in between recasts?), so you do slightly better DPS as ACN, thus wonder why everyone makes so big a deal out of it?

Make a video then of your SMN and ACN dummy parses, I'll gladly help pick apart what you are doing wrong.

[Huntington]

That just goes to show that you are not playing SMN very well. If you were, you'd be at 240 DPS on SMN, not 217.

Is that the issue here? You don't play SMN very well, and ACN is easier (more DoTs, less dealing with optimizing the time in between recasts?), so you do slightly better DPS as ACN, thus wonder why everyone makes so big a deal out of it?

Make a video then of your SMN and ACN dummy parses, I'll gladly help pick apart what you are doing wrong.

You can certainly extrapolate that I'm not playing it well, but you have no surefire answer on if I am or not. You're shooting into the wind and hoping the current carries your guess where you think it should go. Maybe it's because my item level on SMN right now is at 78, maybe it's because not everyone plays this game every single day to have the best gear possible, maybe, just maybe, it was there because that was awhile back and I've since gotten more gear and a few Allagan pieces.

I'm on PS3 also btw, bothering to capture video for this to prove something to people over the internet sounds like I'd have to be doing pretty awful in life to think a few opinions from people on it matter that much. I'm awaiting a PC Master Race comment now.

By the way, your little test in another thread went exactly as I did it when I did my own parse, yet I recall you earlier on saying using Spur and Rouse in order before Enkindle was incorrect, care to explain how you're using the same moveset as me so much better when I've done Spur > Rouse > Enkindle > Raging Strikes > Bio 2 > Miasma > Bio > Miasma 2 > SwiftCast Shadow Flare > Ruin 1 myself?