Is there an unneeded hostility towards regular classes in this game?

[Huntington]

To spend so much time on something that I don't need currently? Yes, I know avid players of XI that looked into it and have hundreds of hours in that that have said that the Relic weapons seem like bravado vanity weapons that aren't worth the time in XIV, that's a perception based on long-time experience in Abyssea, Chains of Promathia, and all of the other additions to it. XI is it's predecessor, someone who's played it for a significant amount of time will be able to notice and take apart things.

So that Spell Speed in the end doesn't matter at all does it? Currently with the gear on my SMN and ACN, ACN has 30 more Spell speed with it, MP is nearly the same, and it only has more Vitality because of the Crimson Circlet and Summoner's Doublet, while ACN has the Darklight Cowl. When that playing field gets more evened up, I won't see much of a difference.I have two Allagan rings, then 3 pieces of Darklight casting on the right side, Crimson on head, hands, and legs, then ACN has the same besides the body and head armor. That's what's making that difference in Intelligence and otherwise right now. That small 20 bonus won't matter when that's evened out, I'd bet on it.

If I need to heal myself in a pinch, and for Healers to more quickly heal me in the event that I take damage of course.
If you know of a way to dodge the wide-spread attack that happens in the Bone Dragon CT fight when a Skeleton runs into it, then I'd love to hear it.

Regular swaps of Internal Release and Blood for Blood are making up the difference in what I'm seeing and experiencing constantly.

[T0rin]

I had a big long post typed up, further recanting the obviously bad information you are spewing, but I'll boil it down to this:

Your experience in XI doesn't matter. If you can't see the benefit of weapon damage, you simply don't understand how damage in this game works. In the end, ACN pidgeon-holes you into a single set of gear, SMN has more diversity. You shouldn't need to heal yourself, ever, and a minor amount of damage reduction in a non-end game instance is unimportant to overall balance. Swapping IR and B4B gives a very minor boost to overall DPS, and even when mixed in with Aero, is easily outweighted by the 20 INT, 10 potency on pet attacks and Fester.

Stop thinking that since you know XI, you know XIV. It is plainly obvious that you don't.

This statement alone is enough for anyone who understands _this_ game to basically ignore everything you have to say on what is "good".

To spend so much time on something that I don't need currently? Yes, I know avid players of XI that looked into it and have hundreds of hours in that that have said that the Relic weapons seem like bravado vanity weapons that aren't worth the time in XIV, that's a perception based on long-time experience in Abyssea, Chains of Promathia, and all of the other additions to it. XI is it's predecessor, someone who's played it for a significant amount of time will be able to notice and take apart things.

i90 weapons are the single most potent, and cost effective way to increase damage over the i80 alternatives. If you can't recognize that, you really don't understand how damage works in this game.

[Huntington]

I had a big long post typed up, further recanting the obviously bad information you are spewing, but I'll boil it down to this:

Your experience in XI doesn't matter. If you can't see the benefit of weapon damage, you simply don't understand how damage in this game works. In the end, ACN pidgeon-holes you into a single set of gear, SMN has more diversity. You shouldn't need to heal yourself, ever, and a minor amount of damage reduction in a non-end game instance is unimportant to overall balance. Swapping IR and B4B gives a very minor boost to overall DPS, and even when mixed in with Aero, is easily outweighted by the 20 INT, 10 potency on pet attacks and Fester.

Stop thinking that since you know XI, you know XIV. It is plainly obvious that you don't.

This statement alone is enough for anyone who understands _this_ game to basically ignore everything you have to say on what is "good".

i90 weapons are the single most potent, and cost effective way to increase damage over the i80 alternatives. If you can't recognize that, you really don't understand how damage works in this game.

The game that came before this and played a significant part on helping to influence and shape XIV had no part at all huh? What gives you the crystal clear authority to be able to look to someone else and say that just because they might have played for less time than you, that they themselves don't know anything? As far as it seems now, I'm being lectured by someone on an argument that comes off as heavily elitist-like. You've thrown your own results and information at me and I've given mine, yet throughout the whole thing I haven't seen any slight recognizing of what was said. You shrug off what I give as my side of the argument and ridicule and say I don't understand any concepts like weapon damage and the like simply because I may base experiences off of a previous MMO. Which when made by the same company with differences only in age and staffing, means that at this point, you've only played XIV.


If you haven't, feel free to speak up and say what experiences you have give such a clerical advantage to your words, you've thrown walls of DPS stats at me, but who saw you do them? Do you have other people that could be contacted on this site and asked to give witness testimony? Or are you just going to keep holding whatever cache of knowledge you think you have over me and then use that as the deciding factor in why your words mean more than mine.

3 damage does not make a difference, you can file it under "more DPS" as much as you want, but with gear and Jobs and Classes made as they are, the system is already set up to make whatever you say fall to your side just because of how SE incorrectly made it work, admitted by them in one of the recent Live-Letters. If you're going to count a faulty mechanic system as a pro to your side, you're already arguing from slippery slope, and this is no a longer fun nor creative conversation. It's just a waste of time at this point.

[Allyrion]

If you haven't, feel free to speak up and say what experiences you have give such a clerical advantage to your words, you've thrown walls of DPS stats at me, but who saw you do them? Do you have other people that could be contacted on this site and asked to give witness testimony? Or are you just going to keep holding whatever cache of knowledge you think you have over me and then use that as the deciding factor in why your words mean more than mine.

Experience is important but it does not make for an objective argument. It is by definition anecdotal.
T0rin's position on how stats work and how they affect SMN damage are all over this forum.
However, I do think he may have come off as confrontational. There's nothing wrong with trying things out.

You were asking others about their tests and how things match up.
I don't believe you need to go through every bit of theory crafting to discuss trying out ACN. You didn't deserve the ridicule you got.

On the other hand, you've fallen into bad arguments about experience based on another game (with a completely different system) and talking about the system being faulty.
If I remember correctly, SE's comment about classes not being useful didn't imply it wasn't going to be fixed. If anything, Classes will be given better solo potential, but Jobs will always be at the forefront for group end-game content.
That has always been the stated design. In fact, I'll quote it:

The foremost appeal of jobs is the unparalleled degree of specialization they offer. Their potential is best realized in party situations, where having well-defined roles is the key to success. There can be no doubt that jobs shine the brightest in the company of others.

Hence despite your whole spiel about knowing the company's MMO history by playing XI, you are speaking about going into end-game parties with a class.
Now experimenting is fine with friends or solo, but when you join a PuG then are you really surprised people give you a hard time for going against the game's design?
If you ever really did find a way for ACN to beat out SMN dps, then you'll probably be the one exploiting "a faulty mechanic".

I think this discussion could've gone more civilly and that's a shame.
Either way, your testing seems a little incomplete at a few minutes and relying on someone else to get your dps. Dps evens out at around 5 minutes. It would even give more credibility if you gave actual result numbers for each test. Of course, if you aren't doing the SMN rotation right it won't prove anything but the discussion would benefit from some real numbers thrown around. You should also use equal gear on the ACN and SMN to provide equal footing.

[T0rin]

I think this discussion could've gone more civilly and that's a shame.

It was, more or less, at first. Then as he began to bring XI into the conversation as some form of credibility in false assumptions, that's when things started to take a turn for the worse. It's one thing to want to try something new. It's another thing to go around saying something different is better, with nothing to back it up, but years of play time in another game. There is a lot of bad information that goes around these forums, which new players and people new to the forum might take as truth. I've always attempted to correct bad information as best I could, while informing myself better at the same time.

It is hard, though, to not become somewhat confrontational in the face of such petulance. When I'm being told simple things like relics are simply vanity items, weapon damage doesn't matter, and fester doesn't affect DPS. I mean, things we know as truth now are being rebutted in the face of everyone, with nothing to back it up. The spreading of misinformation really bothers me, especially when someone is so convinced they are right, and many people who have come before them have concretely proven them wrong. New players tend to believe the people who say things with confidence they are right, simply out of not knowing any better. They may even think this guy is right, because he believes it so strongly.

Anyways, to the OP.... you came here asking for questions to be answered, and you got your answers, with proof. You didn't want to believe it, and started up this little debate that inevitably you could not 'win'. Yet you persisted, and blame others, namely me, for being confrontational. Next time, be a little more open minded, especially in the face of the truth, and you might come away with a better result.

[scarebearz]

What gives you the crystal clear authority to be able to look to someone else and say that just because they might have played for less time than you, that they themselves don't know anything? As far as it seems now, I'm being lectured by someone on an argument that comes off as heavily elitist-like.

You have made a thread asking questions, let you do not listen to the answers.

If you want to seriously gimp your dps, go ahead, but don't expect all random party members to be happy about it.

[Almalexia]

The game that came before this and played a significant part on helping to influence and shape XIV had no part at all huh?

Well, not the damage mechanics.

XIV is transparent, linear, and highly predictable. XI is about as transparent as mud.