Is there an unneeded hostility towards regular classes in this game?

[spizsam]

People give smn too much credit in ff11.

Nobody played them in endgame. Endgame LS would laugh at you if you applied as only smn.

Smn in ff11 was a subpar whm all of the time, especially while they were leveling. You were lucky to get smn to max level pre-abyssea because smn was a huge gimp to exp parties. They only had two uses. One was hate free damage on HNMs, which rarely still happened. In old old old ff11 days, people would rather just have one or two thf or dd/thf SATA the tank nonstop while other dds can fight the HNMs. The only other use for smn was Alexander and that was still rarely used.

Sure you can get a bunch of smns together and go kill some trials, but I can solo the primals as rdm, so what did it really matter?

Smn in ff11 was trash, it was just all novelty. People need to stop making it sound like ff11 smn was great when they were just completely useless to anything in the game.

[jlewiss]

Look OP it really comes down to this. You made a thread to get answers, they weren't the answers you wanted but you got them nonetheless. There is really no point keeping this thread alive because your just going to continue getting flac. The amount of people that support your idea are far and few between and if this thread is any indication of in the in game world (it is) then at the present moment there is no need to play as a base classs. Your job as a dps is to provide dps, not make the healers job easier or the tanks job easier. When you as a dps class decide to play more for the sake of making a healers life easier rather then killing stuff faster your actually making everyones life harder.

You know those 7 seconds you took to cast convalesence and use physick on yourself? Thats now 7 seconds longer the fight has dragged on putting more strain on the healers mp and more strain on the tanks HP. I'm sorry if this is difficult to understand but your not finding some hidden loophole into playing the game more efficently. With the way the people in this game obessive over min/max if player as a class rather then a role was viable EVERYONE would be dong it. If this is really that huge of a gameplay hinderance to you then go start a thread in the suggestion forum for a boost to base class stats or something. Until then stop being so self involved and play as a job not a class.

[Cabalabob]

Ok to try and put this in perspective first, comparing arcanist to summoner is like comparing WAR/WHM to PLD/WAR in ffxi, WAR/WHM fulfils a similar role to a paladin having defensive skills and cures and also has a variety of other tools at its disposal. But it will never compare to a PLD/WAR where it counts, in it's ability to tank. It has less defence, less defensive moves and it's cures are not as powerful.

As for your tests, basing them over such a short period of time doesn't give you a full perspective of the job vs class. Your arcanist may have gotten a big burst out of having blood for blood and internal release, but these buffs last for less than a minute. Once that's done arcanist damage drops like a stone, while summoner can continually deal decent damage over the longer period.

As for defensive cooldowns, you lose defence and hp by using arcanist over summoner. As with above this means you gain some defensive cool downs for 5 seconds but after that your natural defence is weaker.

So even if arcanist gets bursts of higher damage than summoner in 10 seconds, over a longer period of say 5 minutes, it will deal less damage and be less defensive.

Then there is as others have said gear versatility, summoner gets access to the mythic set, it can combine the mythic set with the allagan set to build a set where the stats complement each other, like a spell speed set or a crit set. While arcanist can only use the allagan set, this means it gets a mix of crit and spell speed and can't specialise into a particular one. Meaning it gets watered down versions of every stat while summoner can pack on a stat to make those numbers count.

I don't agree with the way SE has set classes up like this, but for now that is how they are and it can't be argued that summoner produces worse numbers than arcanist.

[Ryuko]

People give smn too much credit in ff11.

Nobody played them in endgame. Endgame LS would laugh at you if you applied as only smn.

Smn in ff11 was a subpar whm all of the time, especially while they were leveling. You were lucky to get smn to max level pre-abyssea because smn was a huge gimp to exp parties. They only had two uses. One was hate free damage on HNMs, which rarely still happened. In old old old ff11 days, people would rather just have one or two thf or dd/thf SATA the tank nonstop while other dds can fight the HNMs. The only other use for smn was Alexander and that was still rarely used.

Sure you can get a bunch of smns together and go kill some trials, but I can solo the primals as rdm, so what did it really matter?

Smn in ff11 was trash, it was just all novelty. People need to stop making it sound like ff11 smn was great when they were just completely useless to anything in the game.

You are incorrect. Before Abyssea, I had SMN, WHM, and BLM at 75. Was SMN useful for everything? No, but it did have a lot of uses. My endgame LS (which beat all content before dwindling in WotG) loved using SMN for wyrms (Tiamat/Jormungand) and basically any kited mob -- even before Diabolos made it easy to do a reliable 500~ magic damage from far away. I remember one time joining an entire SMN/BST alliance (back before endgame LS's had monopolies on Tiamat) and downing her that way. It was REALLY fun. The first Carbuncle x5 BCNM win on my server was almost entirely made up of summoners coordinating with each other. There were entire Summoner linkshells that could get almost anything done using pets and coordination.

You just literally said they were trash, showing you really did not know the class very well. Also, Alexander was not added until much, much later -- far after they introduced the ability for avatars to MB and SC, and also long after they split the offensive/defensive bloodpacts into two timers/groups. Summoners stopped being grossly seen as merely a 'gimped healer' at about the time SC/MBs were introduced. I believe it was a few years later they actually made Summoning Magic *count* for something, too. It is true that not all exp parties were SMN friendly, but there were some that were prior to TP burns. Astral Burns were also an option -- similar to Manaburns for BLM.

Every class had its ups and downs. When I hit 75 with my BLM, it was during a time when EVERYONE was doing TP burns on those birds in ToAU areas. No one wanted a BLM. I actually ended up soloing to 75 on those qiqirns in the indoor area (that's as specific as I can be, as it's been a while).

I soloed a lot of difficult things as summoner, and took great pride in doing so. I can't tell you how many times I soloed avatars for others, or organized Fenrir parties to help low level summoners get their beloved avatars. I would also team up with a beastmaster to duo some of the harder NMs in the game. BST pets held hate well, but did little damage. SMN pets did nice damage, but did not hold hate well. Together, we were an unstoppable team.

That said, I'm not saying SMN was the best class ever... but I also do not like that you are saying they were horrible and using THAT as a reason to discredit OP. The beauty of FFXI is that you could really find a use for any class if you are creative. My first Divine Might win was filled with several summoners AND a beastmaster on top of other less-than-desirable class combinations. This was when most people just went in and nuked it down as a group of BLMs.

Where I WILL agree with you is that FFXI and FFXIV are not the same game -- as you will see from my earlier reply -- and that SMN in FFXI and FFXIV should not be seen or treated the same way. They are very, very different classes with very different functionalities. Even the lore behind the two jobs is very different.

[SnowHeart]

I play solo a lot and I don't use the jobs much. In a group setting it does change and jobs become more important. This is only 40+ and becomes more pronounced with higher gear. ( many jobs get class defining abilities at lvl 40 and there is no similar skill available from cross classing)

A difference of 10% to 15% dps/heal/threat is not unreasonable at ilvl90. While the original question focused on summoner, all classes face near the same issue. Unless the group is over geared, you are asking others and yourself to work harder in a game.

[Pwnznewbz]

As someone that liked ACN and has built an i86 gear set to try out the possibilities of adventuring with Carbuncle, I can definitely relate to the want to try raids/instances as ACN instead of SMN. Having said that, you are extremely gimping dps. I've tried since creating my i90 ACN post and the dps, which I can confirm now, is at least 15% lower.

However, I don't think that is enough of a reason to get kicked from CT or other DF related raids/instances. Since ACN is a class choice for queuing, and you can que so long as you meet mandatory ilvl requirements, then your group should be fine with your involvement in the party. But, I am betting there is more to this story since you were indeed kicked from a CT raid... probably not doing something right such as pulling bosses early, or wiping the raid by not doing your role properly.

[Huntington]

As someone that liked ACN and has built an i86 gear set to try out the possibilities of adventuring with Carbuncle, I can definitely relate to the want to try raids/instances as ACN instead of SMN. Having said that, you are extremely gimping dps. I've tried since creating my i90 ACN post and the dps, which I can confirm now, is at least 15% lower.

However, I don't think that is enough of a reason to get kicked from CT or other DF related raids/instances. Since ACN is a class choice for queuing, and you can que so long as you meet mandatory ilvl requirements, then your group should be fine with your involvement in the party. But, I am betting there is more to this story since you were indeed kicked from a CT raid... probably not doing something right such as pulling bosses early, or wiping the raid by not doing your role properly.

In that one Raid's case, none of the above. Joined on the Vassago part, they wiped because it was going badly which is why there was a space for me, and I joined, then started it anew. Did my thing for the fight, there were no issues, I didn't go down, or anything like that. Soon as the fight ends and we move on to Behemoth, I got to the top of the steps and got kicked five seconds later. No one said anything, no one even looked at me. I just got booted for no literal reason. I implore people to kick me if I know I can't make any sort of a difference incase I don't know a fight or am geared horribly, level 30 gear in CT for example, but this was one case of Class Elitism in a Raid that is not all that difficult when everyone knows what to do. Everyone could in each 8 man party do the fight on Classes if they wanted to, and I saw a video someone posted of a "Marauder DPS class" the other day. They stayed at range and just threw buffed Tomahawks the entire time. There were people that laughed, then other's that got pissed off at them. They did not get booted for literally messing around and doing less damage though, they stayed in every raid they participated in the OP said in a later post I believe. Yet I could go in and do my Role very well, not cause undue problems and still participate, and I got booted for nothing.

There are obvious times when I can say where I made a mistake in my playing, that was not one of them.

[Ardan]

There are obvious times when I can say where I made a mistake in my playing, that was not one of them.

You're making a mistake continuing to post on these forums. You've been told you're wrong about ACN. You asked for advice, advice was given and now you're having a tantrum. ACN is not welcome in endgame content, end of story. In the kinder way to put it:

[Huntington]

You're making a mistake continuing to post on these forums. You've been told you're wrong about ACN. You asked for advice, advice was given and now you're having a tantrum. ACN is not welcome in endgame content, end of story. In the kinder way to put it:

That was in a completely unrelated situation what you quoted, did you read for coherency or not? What part of anything now says tantrum? I don't care about anything that happened before that 3rd/4th page marker, I'm not screaming at anyone in all caps or using overt amounts of exclamation marks, and never have been. If you want to think I'm pulling a tantrum find some actual evidence that says so.

As for you, don't post if you have nothing constructive or useful to add, memes are not an addition to anything.

[Maku]

I saw a video someone posted of a "Marauder DPS class" the other day. They stayed at range and just threw buffed Tomahawks the entire time. There were people that laughed, then other's that got pissed off at them. They did not get booted for literally messing around and doing less damage though, they stayed in every raid they participated in the OP said in a later post I believe. Yet I could go in and do my Role very well, not cause undue problems and still participate, and I got booted for nothing.

That MRD was surprised he didn't get booted though. If you read the whole thread he states that many times. He probably didn't get booted though because he kept talking about being a "Ranged DPS" and such and people knew full well that he was "trolling"/ having a go and just fn off. Your group that kicked your probably thought one of two things. Either, A) This guy made a mistake when he qued get rid of him. or B) This guy is serious that he thinks ACN is useful in Endgame, kick him.

I am going to go with the A option cause I like to think the best of people but B is more than likely what happened.