How to make tanks more fun to play (devs please read)

[juniglee]

Again, uninstall the game asap if you that stupid. At first, your argument was about PLD holding hate, i told you how easy it is, now you talk to me about Obvious stuff like that. This is not anymore how GOOD a PLD can be, but how stupid a pld can be.

Tanking is more than just 123, there's a lot of other intricate knowledge, ones which you seem to have forgotten.

^Yet you've oh so conveniently decided to somehow oversee that statement above. Wasn't your argument simply spamming 123/flash/overpower?

[Pr0c3ss0r]

^Yet you've oh so conveniently decided to somehow oversee that statement above. Wasn't your argument simply spamming 123/flash/overpower?

Oh gee, like how the healer depends on the tank to not let mobs run to him?

It was obvious you were talking about holding aggro, and i simply stated how easy that part was, and yet the next part you telling me is even more easy for people with half a brain.

Simple as DPS or healer shouldn't be in between a PLD and Monster. I don't even know why we even talking about that as it is so simple mechanic.

[juniglee]

It was obvious you were talking about holding aggro, and i simply stated how easy that part was, and yet the next part you telling me is even more easy for people with half a brain.

Simple as DPS or healer shouldn't be in between a PLD and Monster. I don't even know why we even talking about that as it is so simple mechanic.

Because holding aggro is the be all end all of playing tank, amirite? Nothing else I should be concerned about, like stunning AoEs, TP management, and the like. They're all such simple mechanics! I press 123, and everything magically happens!

Maybe you should watch the videos you link to?

Every character in that video has i90+ gear and +1 relics.

You claimed a scenario where only 2 folks even had a relic, and everyone else was not.

This video is a bunch of totally overgeared people, and even they wiped a few times. That's why the video starts with almost 2 limit bars filled.

Claiming tank DPS is fine so long as you are overgeared for the encounter is absolutely moronic and missing the entire point of this thread.

How about Titan Extreme then? Would Titan Extreme have any imaginary "gear cap" you've decided to set?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9fE2o0C8qc

1 PLD, 1 WAR, 3 MRD, 1 BLM, 1 WHM, 1 SCH

Regarding his Titan HM thing. Yes you can do it with all that. If I had to bring a Warrior into Titan HM pre-2.1, they'd wear DPS gear and just act as a second DPS. Just like in the video I linked, they had a BLM just for LB during Gaolers, Giantsbane's group had a melee DPS to LB the heart.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

I press 123, and everything magically happens!

Pretty much that yes. Sad ikr? Stun is optional in many case, so is silence, many time is not even required or someone else can perfectly do it too. Positioning is important as much for Tank as it is for healer and DPS, so there is no special skill there, that called Mechanic, it have nothing to do with Tank skill. (Player skill at best, but nothing to do with Tank skill)

So let put it this way, have a tank that know how to position monster (something simple as hell), have him press 1,2,3 macro, and baam, you can win Turn 5, that be just more work for healer with Adloquium / SS / Virus / eye for an eye and so on.

Do i really need to make a video to prove my point?

**Edit: not saying that be mega easy =D, but that would prove that healer make 70% of the work out there, and even a BAD tank with at least the knowledge of mechanic can lead it to the win.

**Edit2: PLD don't always have a CD up for every Death Sentence (every 35 sec), and that not making them die every time is not up, that be sad for turn 5. At best, CD help the healer to save mana or help the healer to stay a bit more relax, but that not what saving a PLD, not even close to be the case.

**Edit 3: If PLD are considered good base on they knowledge of the fight / mechanic, i know many DPS with lv1 PLD that are good PLD. Again, it have nothing to do with PLD skill. I could only agree on WAR job because they combo are more complex and there a lots of space to mess up, but again, they are on healer mercy, they can be good at they combo, it wont change much with a bad healer.

[therpgfanatic]

How about Titan Extreme then? Would Titan Extreme have any imaginary "gear cap" you've decided to set?

What does that even have to do with the frustrations of new players leveling a Gladiator, which causes them to drop the class and reroll as a non-tank?

It took me about 100 hours of game time to take a Gladiator from 1 to 50, without any of the 50% XP bonus from already having a lv50, and while doing the story mode. During that entire time, it was boring and felt slow as hell fighting. Sure, I only had to kill 5-10 enemies per quest but that is beside the point. It's not a very fun class to play leveling up, at all, and the low DPS is part of why its not fun.

You keep missing the point of this thread. Are you just here to troll or what? I mean really, your only examples involve characters who have 20-30 item levels above the content.

[juniglee]

Pretty much that yes. Sad ikr? Stun is optional in many case, so is silence, many time is not even required or someone else can perfectly do it too. Positioning is important as much for Tank as it is for healer and DPS, so there is no special skill there, that called Mechanic, it have nothing to do with Tank skill. (Player skill at best, but nothing to do with Tank skill)

Optional but it helps. For example, stunning/pacifying Copperbell HM last boss before Impact Roar saves your healer from using a Medica. It would not make much difference anyway - the healer will probably have enough MP to use at least one Medica, but you can at least help the healer save 400-something MP.

Paladins don't have skill management as much as Warriors do, but at least they can still do something like I described above. That is an example of a good tank. An average tank will dodge AoE and 123, but do nothing more. A bad tank will eat every AoE and put more work on the healer.

So let put it this way, have a tank that know how to position monster (something simple as hell), have him press 1,2,3 macro, and baam, you can win Turn 5, that be just more work for healer with Adloquium / SS / Virus / eye for an eye and so on.

T5 in particular...neurolink positioning? Snakes positioning? This is not something that you can "macro". This is something you practice over and over again until you get it right.

**Edit: not saying that be mega easy =D, but that would prove that healer make 70% of the work out there, and even a BAD tank with at least the knowledge of mechanic can lead it to the win.

I concur, it's not "mega easy". It's easy to play a Paladin. But healers have as much responsibility to top up the group as much as the tank has to keep the rest of the party from harm where possible. Knowing mechanics simply isn't enough, Paladins need to know how to manage cooldowns, and Warriors need to know how to manage buffs/debuffs.

**Edit2: PLD don't always have a CD up for every Death Sentence (every 35 sec), and that not making them die every time is not up, that be sad for turn 5. At best, CD help the healer to save mana or help the healer to stay a bit more relax, but that not what saving a PLD, not even close to be the case.

Usually in this case, a Warrior is the better MT for Twintania, because of Inner Beast. Paladin can do the job too - you need to time Stoneskin right, it is just more dependable on teammates (ie. Virus).

**Edit 3: If PLD are considered good base on they knowledge of the fight / mechanic, i know many DPS with lv1 PLD that are good PLD. Again, it have nothing to do with PLD skill. I could only agree on WAR job because they combo are more complex and there a lots of space to mess up, but again, they are on healer mercy, they can be good at they combo, it wont change much with a bad healer.

I started out playing as a Lancer up till 35, before I switched to a Gladiator. My motivation was because I enjoyed running dungeons, and the 1 hour queues for Brayflox (one of my favourite dungeons) was simply too long. As a tank, it only takes me 5 seconds to get in. So yes, up till Brayflox, I knew the mechanics of every dungeon. Your friends who started as a DPS will also know what a tank needs to know, just like I as a tank know what my DPS/healers are supposed to do too.

Warriors isn't that much harder to mess up either. They build more aggro than Paladins, so it gives you more time to apply debuffs like Storm's Eye/Path, and keep Maim up. Every tank is on healer mercy, like it or not. A bad healer will cause the tank to die, which eventually causes the party to be overwhelmed. Similarly, a bad tank will fail to keep aggro or Provoke (a bad WAR may not even level PLD to 22 for Provoke) mobs off, and eventually the healer falls first, then the rest of the crew. Everyone has their responsibility, once again this is a team game.

What does that even have to do with the frustrations of new players leveling a Gladiator, which causes them to drop the class and reroll as a non-tank?

It took me about 100 hours of game time to take a Gladiator from 1 to 50, without any of the 50% XP bonus from already having a lv50, and while doing the story mode. During that entire time, it was boring and felt slow as hell fighting. Sure, I only had to kill 5-10 enemies per quest but that is beside the point. It's not a very fun class to play leveling up, at all, and the low DPS is part of why its not fun.

You keep missing the point of this thread. Are you just here to troll or what? I mean really, your only examples involve characters who have 20-30 item levels above the content.

100 hours? Gladiator was my first class when I moved over to Tonberry, I sure did not feel like I took that long. Like you I had no 50 bonus EXP too.

Killing enemies isn't so bad. They don't threaten you enough to make you feel endangered anyway, and your DPS isn't THAT low. Stop exaggerating.

Some say Titan HM is the most boring fight for a tank. You just stand there, never needing to move except during transition, and eat every bombs. For me, I made it fun by finding the blind spot around the bombs, and dodging all Weight of the Land when at least 3 other players are down. I feel a thrill pulling 9 or 10 mobs in Turn 1 after ADS/before Caduceus, and dancing around their AoE.

It really, really sounds to me like you wanted to play a tanky DPS class. Once again, your purpose is to get more people to play tanks, and I keep saying that unless people want to take the responsibility, it's not going to happen. As long as people hurl insults at new tanks for making ONE mistake, they will probably not be encouraged to play tank at all anymore. Ever heard of those stories where people cry over a game, because someone insulted them for not being able to tank? THAT is why people don't want to tank. Not because "DPS too low lol" or "name not flashy lol". You want more people to play tank? Run a tank training clinic. Go on other classes on low level duty roulette. Teach that new tank how to pull mobs. DPS is the least of the problem.

I can tell you that being overgeared for such content, your DPS isn't going to be that much higher either. I am full i90, and my Rage of Halone only hits T4 Dreadnought for 375 damage with Sword Oath and Fight or Flight. But no matter, my job isn't to DPS anyway, but I contribute what I can. Perhaps if you want to deal more DPS, go for a pure STR build? Use STR gear? That's part of itemization, don't expect to do something when your role is clearly not meant to do it anyway.

Keep missing the point of why people don't play tanks. You're attempting to fix the part that's the least problem - attempting to get the community to be more patient to new tanks is what you should be trying to do.

Here's a few links for your discussion:
http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/175326/blog/773080/
http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/6432645/blog/855066/

I'm sure you can find more on the Lodestone.

Or you can even try something like this:
http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/175326/blog/790474/

[saber_alter]

What does that even have to do with the frustrations of new players leveling a Gladiator, which causes them to drop the class and reroll as a non-tank?

It took me about 100 hours of game time to take a Gladiator from 1 to 50, without any of the 50% XP bonus from already having a lv50, and while doing the story mode. During that entire time, it was boring and felt slow as hell fighting. Sure, I only had to kill 5-10 enemies per quest but that is beside the point. It's not a very fun class to play leveling up, at all, and the low DPS is part of why its not fun.

You keep missing the point of this thread. Are you just here to troll or what? I mean really, your only examples involve characters who have 20-30 item levels above the content.

gld was my first class as well. I'm pretty sure it took me not even half that time for one to 50. i didn't find the dps to be terrible, i was willing to sacrifice damage for mitigation and health. i didn't find it too difficult to learn how to effectively rotate cooldowns, keep up AOE hate, stun mechanics, etc. i even leveled cnj to 34 just to improve.

but pld is boring. mostly because its too simplified, basic tank archetype. you have your tanking stance, a few mitigation moves, an aggro building combo, an aoe aggro ability, and a invincibility button. thats it. not really that fun. i really only take up the sword when it is necessary for me to (like when someone needs a tank badly).

i don't want a tanky dps. i don't want a jack-of-all-trades. i like paladin, but in terms of entertainment it's boring. i just want something that is more than a mind-numbing do this rotation over and over to hold hate class with a mitigation tack on.

[Dano]

snip

Please speak for yourself only, don't try to pretend everyone has the same sentiment as you. You are missing the point of tanking in this game, which is to mitigate damage and mob management and all other aspect of tanking, leave the damage dealing to a proper DPS. If it's not fun for you then please switch to a DPS job or play Tera/Vindictus/GuildWars 2..etc where you can solo tank dps heal everything in one class.

I object and disagree to all your suggestions in changing the class and I sincerely hope that the developers don't take any advice from this thread.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

I sincerely hope that the developers don't take any advice from this thread.

Agree, DPS and healer can keep enjoy the wait in DF and PF, to me, it change absolutely nothing, and i love the instant DF pop (less than 15 sec) for every instance. Hell i can even ditch a DF, wait 30 min, join a new one, and is still less downtime than DPS 1h+ waiting.

I have np with DEV ignoring the Tank class problem.