How to make tanks more fun to play (devs please read)

[Pr0c3ss0r]

Actually there is... it is called the healer role. Tank self healing would make them somewhat pointless. Of course, you suggested giving tanks dps and healing... which means you still wouldn't have "good" tanks- they would just be massively overpowered.

In FF11 PLD never replaced a healer, it was also not overpowered. idk where you read me saying they should be top healer or top dps, and i don't even get how you end up to think that i said they should be TOP everything in the game.

[therpgfanatic]

In FF11 PLD never replaced a healer, it was also not overpowered. idk where you read me saying they should be top healer or top dps, and i don't even get how you end up to think that i said they should be TOP everything in the game.

As tends to happen, some people interpret everything as an extreme.

Just like my how request how for a DPS increase was interpreted by a few folks as requesting that Paladins become the top DPS class.

I'm pretty sure White Mages do more damage than Paladins do. There's a lot of wiggle room somewhere between White Mage DPS and Black Mage / Bard / Summoner DPS, and Paladin DPS ought to fall somewhere between the two.

[eagledorf]

I'm pretty sure White Mages do more damage than Paladins do. There's a lot of wiggle room somewhere between White Mage DPS and Black Mage / Bard DPS, and Paladin DPS ought to fall somewhere between the two.

A PLD in Sword Oath can put out reasonable DPS for a long time (you do get TP starved, but it takes time). A WAR outside of Defiance can do approximately the same. PLD and WAR also get DPS boosting cooldowns (FoF, Berserk, Inner Release).

A WHM can either Holy spam and run out of MP fast doing sort of good DPS, or they can use Stone II/AeroII/FA and be a pretty mediocre DPS. A SCH can do quite well sustaining DPS, but without cooldowns and the pet, their DPS is also going to be quite sub-par compared to SMN.

You really have to remember much of a PLD's DPS is auto-attacks and some off-GCD abilities while a WHM is literally only hitting when they get a spell off.

[XNihili]

Sorry for hurting your feeling =D Is clear you don't understand my point of view.

You can be good as you want on Tank Class, any bad healer will make it look utter shitty.

"AVERAGE TANK" He stay alive, and lead his party to success.
"BAD TANK" He clueless about the mechanic or clueless about how to pop his CD on right time. (which refer to mechanic)
"GOOD TANK" _____________________________________________________________________________________

IMO a good tank has a good knowledge of his party strength and can set the right pace.
He is aware of his surrounding and knows when to use his abilities beside those to keep himself alive.
For example against Siren, stunning or silencing Lunatic Voice will greatly reduce the healer's workload.
Flawlessly keeping hate is not good enough.

[Casper]

A good tank is something that is noticeable.

Proper use of your cooldowns and defensive abilities (stoneskin) will allow you to either die a much lower percentage of time than worse tanks, or at least allow you to always have a "cushion" of hp. A tank that never goes under 25% hp allow healers not to have mini heart attacks every 5 seconds. It also allow healers to make more efficient use of their mana -- emergency healing is costly.

Proper use of stance switch will increase noticeably your dps, assuming you spend half your time offtanking due to tank swaps.

Proper use of your other tools will make stuff easier on your whole party (although this is harder to see). Stoneskining the MT, keeping rage of halone up, stoneskining low hp people before a big aoe move (this one has visibility), all this helps. When needed, proper use of silence and stuns is also very noticeable.

By improving on those 3 axes -- damage reduction, dps, and utility -- you can make a MASSIVE difference in a party, one that is noticeable. Of course it will never be as visible than a healer behaviour. But i would argue it is much easier to differenciate a good tank from an average than a good dps from an average (everyone notice the difference between a good player and a bad player anyway, whatever the role).

[therpgfanatic]

A PLD in Sword Oath can put out reasonable DPS for a long time (you do get TP starved, but it takes time). A WAR outside of Defiance can do approximately the same. PLD and WAR also get DPS boosting cooldowns (FoF, Berserk, Inner Release).

A WHM can either Holy spam and run out of MP fast doing sort of good DPS, or they can use Stone II/AeroII/FA and be a pretty mediocre DPS. A SCH can do quite well sustaining DPS, but without cooldowns and the pet, their DPS is also going to be quite sub-par compared to SMN.


You really have to remember much of a PLD's DPS is auto-attacks and some off-GCD abilities while a WHM is literally only hitting when they get a spell off.

Auto-attack? Really?

With the sheer amount of movement required in this game (even tanks have to dodge AoEs) what makes anyone honestly believe Sword Oath is a significant DPS increase?

Auto-attacks don't trigger unless you sit and face the enemy. Every time the tanks has to move, he has to stop auto-attacking. This is not the case of other activated attack abilities which can be used while moving. Just about everything in this game has a cone shaped attack that has to be stunned or dodged (and you can only stun so often), so having Sword Oath tied to auto-attacks was a bad idea.

Sword Oath theorycrafting requires a perfect scenario where the Paladin sits in one place the entire time. There are very few fights like that, whether it is a mob pull or a boss encounter.

As for White Mage needing to use MP. Paladins need to use TP. I run out of TP on long fights, too, so I don't see what your point is. Plus our "attacks off the GCD", Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within....Spirits Within does less damage if we aren't at full HP, which isn't gonna be often while tanking. Circle of Scorn does the same damage to an opponent as our auto-attack, sans Sword Oath.

[Ehayte]

Auto-attack? Really?

I came back to check in on this thread, and I see the OP is still trolling the crap out of everyone. I'll do my part by buying into it.

Auto-attack accounts for roughly 25-35% of melee DPS (check theorcycrafter and parser forum posts around the time of 2.0 release and 2.1 release).

What makes anyone think Sword Oath is a DPS increase? First of all, its an out-right 20% increase in dps from Shield Oath, which it says explicitly in the tool tip. Second, it adds an extra, less powerful auto attack, which also makes a contribution.

lol at your assumptions and claims, sir. Ask anyone with a parser to parse you on any fight with shield oath versus any fight with sword oath, and ANY ATTACK you land will be 20% MORE EFFECTIVE. It is just a straight up DPS increase of 20%, plus the extra auto attacks. How are you arguing anything else?

Protip: Spam your next attack with auto-face target on with legacy movement, you will always be facing your target while moving and it won't change the direction you are going.


The rate at which a WHM would run out of MP by spamming holy is way quicker than the rate at which a PLD would run out of TP doing the Halone Combo. by the by.

[Dhex]

Talk about a long-winded thread.

[Lafiele]

stuff
-Carey

Tanks are fun, there are more than 5 % of player base playing tanks it's just not as high as DPS. Put it this way, there is almost as much tanks as healers.

OP you clearly are not a good tank and haven't soaked yourself enough in real end game content to even make some of these statements.

Also your argument on auto attacks and sword oath for tanks is ridiculous. Melee class have to auto attack too btw and as some have mentioned before, auto attacks accounts for 20-30 % of the classes total DPS. You can auto attack fine even if you're moving as longas you're facing and within range of the boss, not a big issue for tanks to be honest since you're facing the mob 90 % of the time even when you're dodging (not so true for melees).

[therpgfanatic]

I came back to check in on this thread, and I see the OP is still trolling the crap out of everyone. I'll do my part by buying into it.


Auto-attack accounts for roughly 25-35% of melee DPS (check theorcycrafter and parser forum posts around the time of 2.0 release and 2.1 release).

What makes anyone think Sword Oath is a DPS increase? First of all, its an out-right 20% increase in dps from Shield Oath, which it says explicitly in the tool tip. Second, it adds an extra, less powerful auto attack, which also makes a contribution.

lol at your assumptions and claims, sir. Ask anyone with a parser to parse you on any fight with shield oath versus any fight with sword oath, and ANY ATTACK you land will be 20% MORE EFFECTIVE. It is just a straight up DPS increase of 20%, plus the extra auto attacks. How are you arguing anything else?

Protip: Spam your next attack with auto-face target on with legacy movement, you will always be facing your target while moving and it won't change the direction you are going.


The rate at which a WHM would run out of MP by spamming holy is way quicker than the rate at which a PLD would run out of TP doing the Halone Combo. by the by.

Almost forgot.

Shield Oath over-rides Sword Oath. So you can't even use Sword Oath while tanking.

And as I mentioned before, the theorycrafting assumes the Paladin is standing in one place the whole time, which is not the case in actual play.

The fact of the matter is, at i70 (with relic) my character does 76 to 150 points of damage per ability, while everyone else (even the White Mage in Cleric stance) is pushing 500-900 per ability. And White Mages do have Stone II, which does a fair amount of damage, too.

I've also started leveling up a Lancer, and the first thing I noticed is that I can solo FATES that were crushing my Gladiator because he couldn't deal enough DPS to beat down the monsters. Yet another reason why DPS matters; before someone can tank at lv50 they must stick with the class until lv 50. It's pretty frustrating to level a Gladiator due to the low DPS.