How to make tanks more fun to play (devs please read)

[ninesunz]

action names - meh names are names

making pld fun - yes please
cover - should auto cover the person with highest hate, having to pick the person in your pt list is slowga and make the ability nigh useless
or have it act like ffxi where the person being covered has to be behind the pld

new shield ability - active ability to 100% block? (of course it's not 100% dmg reduction!) off the GCD 30s recast? Makes it fun???

aoe cure that doesn't suck? - we're PLDs mang, give us some aoe cure to help out our PT. make it cost mp and tp i don't care. just make us somewhat useful and not just standing around rotating def buffs

how about something like sacrificing all of your enmity for aoe cure?
can we get a enmity steal like how thf had in ffxi? would it be over powered? how about not stealing enmity but halving a pt member's enmity?

do something with with shield bash, it does nothing to any mobs worth fighting - almost all high encounters fully resist or used as a wacky mechanic, i'm talk to you Ifrit

what's that other useless ability after a successful block? can't remember, don't use it can't use it in high level encounters doesn't do anything - if it had possibility to stun or increase enmity or decrease pt members enmity, give tp, give mp anything at all for the love of god make our abilities do something!

/passingout

[Conna]

Tank dps is fine. The reason tank dps appears low is, because your your gear is bad. You also may be comparing yourself to a dps which has several dps cooldowns. The only reasons tanks do nice dmg in some other games (you're probably thinking vengeance in wow) is, because tanks weren't able to hold threat well before then,because dmg was outscaling there threat modifiers and blizzard took the easy way out. So no tanks are fine if you want big dmg play a dps if you want to be the last line of defense between your team and death play tank.

[eagledorf]

I heard ppl say that Flash was like 2 or maybe 3x modifier.... cant remember when or where, xD But then again, that was way back on P4? Or early 2.0, then devs changed it.

Valk's tables used to show the hate equivalent of 495 potency for WAR and 550 for PLD with the trait. The new ones show 500 for both.

To be honest, I don't trust his actual numbers at all, but you do get the idea that it's roughly the same total enmity generated as an uncomboed Halone. If you're using just Halone (well, not you, I'm really referring to OP), you're basically doing a very inefficient version of spamming flash.

[therpgfanatic]

Tank dps is fine. The reason tank dps appears low is, because your your gear is bad. You also may be comparing yourself to a dps which has several dps cooldowns. The only reasons tanks do nice dmg in some other games (you're probably thinking vengeance in wow) is, because tanks weren't able to hold threat well before then,because dmg was outscaling there threat modifiers and blizzard took the easy way out. So no tanks are fine if you want big dmg play a dps if you want to be the last line of defense between your team and death play tank.

The DPS has been low the entire lifetime I've played a Gladiator. From level 1 unto now. And an extra 6 points of damage on the weapon, and a few more points of STR isn't going to make a huge difference. The problem isn't weapons, it is abilities.

Blizzard didn't take "the easy way out". There was an explosion of new people playing tanks during Wrath of the Lich King because they boosted tank DPS and thereby made the tanking role more enjoyable. I played a Paladin and my brother played a Warrior, and for the first time we actually enjoyed leveling up without needing to respec to a DPS tree and totally regear.

But I don't even have the option to switch to a different tree in FF XIV. If I want to play a tank I have to accept low DPS at all times.

Valk's tables used to show the hate equivalent of 495 potency for WAR and 550 for PLD with the trait. The new ones show 500 for both.

To be honest, I don't trust his actual numbers at all, but you do get the idea that it's roughly the same total enmity generated as an uncomboed Halone. If you're using just Halone (well, not you, I'm really referring to OP), you're basically doing a very inefficient version of spamming flash.

I think you and others are missing the point of what I'm saying about the uncomboed Halone spam.

Flash spamming cannot be maintained because you quickly run out of MP, and then have to do the very low enmity generating Fast Blade, Riot Blade combo.

Halone combo has spikes in it, meaning between Fast Blade and Halone there is a chance of those in higher tiers of gear pulling hate off you.

If you spam uncombed Halone you can get better threat and keep it steady without any opportunities to lose threat to other party members, as you would with the Halone combo or Flash + Fast Blade / Riot Blade combo.

Of course this is also with the normal Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn usage on cooldown, since they dont trigger GCD. It's not like I did nothing but spam Halone.

And this is only when I have people with +20 item levels above me.

[BotenAnna]

Have you tried just playing MRD/WAR?

Seriously, please, go level a MRD I want to hear how it goes.

[eagledorf]

I think you and others are missing the point of what I'm saying about the uncomboed Halone spam.

Halone combo has spikes in it, meaning between Fast Blade and Halone there is a chance of those in higher tiers of gear pulling hate off you.

Except that hate doesn't reset every time you do the combo. Since just one (1) combo-Halone is the same amount of hate generated as three (3) Halone Spam, you actually have a more secure hold on the mob during the the second low-enmity generation Fast Blade stage of your combo than if you just did four Halone. That is to say, from the 3rd GCD on you will always be better off having done the combo. It's not the end of the world if somebody else pulls the mob off you for one GCD anyway and that's the maximum amount of time a mob could be pulled off of you doing the Halone Combo that could have been retained spamming Halone (since provoke does not interrupt your combo).

After your initial pull where you might do some snap hate generation (usually by blowing FoF, Shield Lobbing as you close, and blowing your offGCD abilities), you should be able to do the Halone combo safely. There are only a few classes that have no ramp-up to hate generation. BLM and BRD can open almost at almost maximum firepower (BLM does need to build up AF, but they have the potential to open with very high burst), but these two classes happen to have an enmity reducing skill that specifically can be used almost right away without being wasted. A WHM can drop massive cures right off the bat, but if somebody does that, they're an idiot.

MNK, DRG, and SMN require several GCD before they hit maximum DPS. A SMN's first large spike of enmity will probably come fully 3-4 GCD into an encounter with fester. A MNK will never have an enmity spike, just high, steady enmity with potential periods of higher, but still smooth enmity and they hit maximum DPS 9+ GCD into an encounter. DRG opens hitting quite hard since their buff/debuff rotation starts with fairly high potency; however, if for some reason the opening pull isn't enough to keep them off you for the 2 GCD that your Halone Combo requires to hit maximum enmity, just one or two flash or uncomboed Halone should keep them off of you and then you should be doing the combo to solidify your hate lead because they're going to hit that fully buffed 300 potency attack like 7+ GCD in and you want to have maximized your lead by then.

[Yule]

The OP is right about everything, I main Tank as my job and everything he suggested is what I would want. Hell after I completed my CT set I lost interest in tanking because of how boring it is, everything depends on you. Also, global cooldown is stupid....TP drain on sprint is stupid....DPS is laughable...dual tanking is a bad joke.

[therpgfanatic]

Have you tried just playing MRD/WAR?

Seriously, please, go level a MRD I want to hear how it goes.

So you suggest that before a player decides if they want to be a tank, they should level up not just 1 but 2 tanking jobs?

How does this encourages more players to be a tank?

I think the biggest dissonance here are players who pride themselves on being tanks, having put in all the effort to get top tier gear and don't want things to be easier for others who come after them. I'm coming to this realization after seeing players complain about upcoming nerfs to Coil and other kinds of limits being removed, and remembering similar sentiments from veteran players in other games.

No one can take away what you achieved BotenAnna. It's okay.

It's not the end of the world if somebody else pulls the mob off you for one GCD anyway and that's the maximum amount of time a mob could be pulled off of you doing the Halone Combo that could have been retained spamming Halone (since provoke does not interrupt your combo).

Certain fights the boss can do a hell of a lot of damage if he gets loose.

The rest of your theorycrafting I've already responded to in prior posts. You're not really saying anything different, just saying the same thing with different words. I'm not interested in going around in circles.

[eagledorf]

So you suggest that before a player decides if they want to be a tank, they should level up not just 1 but 2 tanking jobs?

just take it as her suggesting WAR to you because it's very different from PLD. It has a totally different system for mitigation and system of self-healing that involves doing spike damage even while tanking. While most of us who play a PLD are happy with the class, if you're not, maybe WAR is for you? (Well, I kind of doubt it; underneath the "wild" flavor, it's still basically a tank like PLD, but who knows)

Certain fights the boss can do a hell of a lot of damage if he gets loose.

Having tanked virtually everything in the game (never done PS as a tank), I literally cannot think of a boss that will kill your party in the first 2 GCD, though I do admit, it's entirely possible that there is one that I'm forgetting. It kind of makes sense since such a hard hitting opening mechanic would make it too likely that the healers will pull from the tank and be terrible design. The real danger here is if a ranged DPS pulls the boss from you and then decides to run around and keep attacking it instead of coming to you for some reason.

I do know several bosses that will one-shot your entire party if you lose hate in the middle of the encounter. It can be funny, actually.

I'm not interested in going around in circles.

That's probably for the best. /wave

[Allyrion]

While I agree they could do a lot more to make the tanks more interesting and interactive, I will disagree with the idea that the tanks of final fantasy are usually the protagonist.
This is true for most(if not all) of the 2D games, so I won't disagree that the precedent is there.
However, none of the FF7+ games have had a tank as a protagonist. I didn't play 12 though, so there might be that.

FF7 - Cloud is a balanced stat character, Barret is clearly the most defensive. If there's a tank, it's Barret.
FF8 - Well, there's really no tank in this game. Squall is not any more defensive than the others. Zell probably has a higher defensive growth, but I haven't looked into it.
FF9 - Adelbert Steiner is the Knight. Zidane is a Thief. No question here.
FF10 - I'm really surprised you could say Tidus was the Tank. Auron's HP growth was insane. He would live through anything that would kill the rest of the party.
FF12 - Didn't play.
FF13 - Lightning is not a tank. Her growth capped as a ravager, she made a decent commando and medic as well. Overall follows the "balanced stat hero" that the 3D games follow. Snow was easily the best Sentinel and a clear tank.

This may seem like nitpicking but it does argue against the dps increase being an iconic tank FF tank trait. Being at the front of the party in cutscenes doesn't make that person the tank since the actual battle didn't push defense on those protagonists while it did on a character next to them.

That said, I do think you can make the tank feel like they're leading the charge in a different way.
I think active mitigation is really a better solution than adding DPS. Tanks should have a more fluid system of defense that they have raise or lower in preparation for bigger attacks.

To make it more final fantasy-esque, I believe defensive abilities (some) should affect the whole party. The only way they can do this is through the LB, but because it is shared few people ever use the tank's LB. Tanks in final fantasy usually have more ways to reduce damage to the party.
Sure the boss is attacking you, but nothing really says you're a guardian like raising everyone's defense and telling the boss that this party is under your protection.

Of course damage phases would have to be designed around that and healers will still be needed. In fact the only difference for damage taken from how it is now would be that if the tank fails at timing, it will be harder on the healers and it may lead to a wipe. But that's part of party synergy and putting the defense of yourself and the party in the tanks hands would attract a lot more people to it imo.

Threat and damage are really not what tanking is about. Even (or especially so) in Final Fantasy.
I do encourage damage as a supplementary part of the role.
I don't think threat should be hard for tanks either. Some people may think that's an important part of tanking, but I think a lot more think it's just annoying to have to chase after a mob.

I think personal and party defense should be the bread and butter of tanking. It should be active and it should be what you're manage throughout the fight.
Warriors are something like this, but it's only on a personal level. As a tank, you've inherently got a spotlight on you. Not everyone likes the spotlight.
Add to that, people don't see your success much but they will definitely see your failure. I think it's obvious why people don't play tanks much.
(So resisting making a joke about it being a "tank-less job"....oh, I guess I did anyway)

If you're going put the weight of the party safety in the tanks hands, I really think they should be able to show off a little more how they're helping everyone.
Tanks should be the sentinels and FF is known being able to show such things with style. However the most notable defensive move is the limit break while few others show anything at all.

As a dps, your abilities still give you the feel that you're taking down the enemy. As a healer, you get spouting lights as a whm or creating defenses as a sch.
The tank is usually physically away from the rest of the party, because the boss is between you and them. Little things like that really affect people's perception.
It would go a long way for you have abilities that link you to the party, so tanks don't feel as much like they're having an argument with the boss in a corner while the rest of the party is well....partying.
I.e. raid cooldowns.

Active mitigation with personal and raid defenses would make tanking much more appealing.