How to make tanks more fun to play (devs please read)

[therpgfanatic]

How about Titan Extreme then? Would Titan Extreme have any imaginary "gear cap" you've decided to set?

What does that even have to do with the frustrations of new players leveling a Gladiator, which causes them to drop the class and reroll as a non-tank?

It took me about 100 hours of game time to take a Gladiator from 1 to 50, without any of the 50% XP bonus from already having a lv50, and while doing the story mode. During that entire time, it was boring and felt slow as hell fighting. Sure, I only had to kill 5-10 enemies per quest but that is beside the point. It's not a very fun class to play leveling up, at all, and the low DPS is part of why its not fun.

You keep missing the point of this thread. Are you just here to troll or what? I mean really, your only examples involve characters who have 20-30 item levels above the content.

[juniglee]

Pretty much that yes. Sad ikr? Stun is optional in many case, so is silence, many time is not even required or someone else can perfectly do it too. Positioning is important as much for Tank as it is for healer and DPS, so there is no special skill there, that called Mechanic, it have nothing to do with Tank skill. (Player skill at best, but nothing to do with Tank skill)

Optional but it helps. For example, stunning/pacifying Copperbell HM last boss before Impact Roar saves your healer from using a Medica. It would not make much difference anyway - the healer will probably have enough MP to use at least one Medica, but you can at least help the healer save 400-something MP.

Paladins don't have skill management as much as Warriors do, but at least they can still do something like I described above. That is an example of a good tank. An average tank will dodge AoE and 123, but do nothing more. A bad tank will eat every AoE and put more work on the healer.

So let put it this way, have a tank that know how to position monster (something simple as hell), have him press 1,2,3 macro, and baam, you can win Turn 5, that be just more work for healer with Adloquium / SS / Virus / eye for an eye and so on.

T5 in particular...neurolink positioning? Snakes positioning? This is not something that you can "macro". This is something you practice over and over again until you get it right.

**Edit: not saying that be mega easy =D, but that would prove that healer make 70% of the work out there, and even a BAD tank with at least the knowledge of mechanic can lead it to the win.

I concur, it's not "mega easy". It's easy to play a Paladin. But healers have as much responsibility to top up the group as much as the tank has to keep the rest of the party from harm where possible. Knowing mechanics simply isn't enough, Paladins need to know how to manage cooldowns, and Warriors need to know how to manage buffs/debuffs.

**Edit2: PLD don't always have a CD up for every Death Sentence (every 35 sec), and that not making them die every time is not up, that be sad for turn 5. At best, CD help the healer to save mana or help the healer to stay a bit more relax, but that not what saving a PLD, not even close to be the case.

Usually in this case, a Warrior is the better MT for Twintania, because of Inner Beast. Paladin can do the job too - you need to time Stoneskin right, it is just more dependable on teammates (ie. Virus).

**Edit 3: If PLD are considered good base on they knowledge of the fight / mechanic, i know many DPS with lv1 PLD that are good PLD. Again, it have nothing to do with PLD skill. I could only agree on WAR job because they combo are more complex and there a lots of space to mess up, but again, they are on healer mercy, they can be good at they combo, it wont change much with a bad healer.

I started out playing as a Lancer up till 35, before I switched to a Gladiator. My motivation was because I enjoyed running dungeons, and the 1 hour queues for Brayflox (one of my favourite dungeons) was simply too long. As a tank, it only takes me 5 seconds to get in. So yes, up till Brayflox, I knew the mechanics of every dungeon. Your friends who started as a DPS will also know what a tank needs to know, just like I as a tank know what my DPS/healers are supposed to do too.

Warriors isn't that much harder to mess up either. They build more aggro than Paladins, so it gives you more time to apply debuffs like Storm's Eye/Path, and keep Maim up. Every tank is on healer mercy, like it or not. A bad healer will cause the tank to die, which eventually causes the party to be overwhelmed. Similarly, a bad tank will fail to keep aggro or Provoke (a bad WAR may not even level PLD to 22 for Provoke) mobs off, and eventually the healer falls first, then the rest of the crew. Everyone has their responsibility, once again this is a team game.

What does that even have to do with the frustrations of new players leveling a Gladiator, which causes them to drop the class and reroll as a non-tank?

It took me about 100 hours of game time to take a Gladiator from 1 to 50, without any of the 50% XP bonus from already having a lv50, and while doing the story mode. During that entire time, it was boring and felt slow as hell fighting. Sure, I only had to kill 5-10 enemies per quest but that is beside the point. It's not a very fun class to play leveling up, at all, and the low DPS is part of why its not fun.

You keep missing the point of this thread. Are you just here to troll or what? I mean really, your only examples involve characters who have 20-30 item levels above the content.

100 hours? Gladiator was my first class when I moved over to Tonberry, I sure did not feel like I took that long. Like you I had no 50 bonus EXP too.

Killing enemies isn't so bad. They don't threaten you enough to make you feel endangered anyway, and your DPS isn't THAT low. Stop exaggerating.

Some say Titan HM is the most boring fight for a tank. You just stand there, never needing to move except during transition, and eat every bombs. For me, I made it fun by finding the blind spot around the bombs, and dodging all Weight of the Land when at least 3 other players are down. I feel a thrill pulling 9 or 10 mobs in Turn 1 after ADS/before Caduceus, and dancing around their AoE.

It really, really sounds to me like you wanted to play a tanky DPS class. Once again, your purpose is to get more people to play tanks, and I keep saying that unless people want to take the responsibility, it's not going to happen. As long as people hurl insults at new tanks for making ONE mistake, they will probably not be encouraged to play tank at all anymore. Ever heard of those stories where people cry over a game, because someone insulted them for not being able to tank? THAT is why people don't want to tank. Not because "DPS too low lol" or "name not flashy lol". You want more people to play tank? Run a tank training clinic. Go on other classes on low level duty roulette. Teach that new tank how to pull mobs. DPS is the least of the problem.

I can tell you that being overgeared for such content, your DPS isn't going to be that much higher either. I am full i90, and my Rage of Halone only hits T4 Dreadnought for 375 damage with Sword Oath and Fight or Flight. But no matter, my job isn't to DPS anyway, but I contribute what I can. Perhaps if you want to deal more DPS, go for a pure STR build? Use STR gear? That's part of itemization, don't expect to do something when your role is clearly not meant to do it anyway.

Keep missing the point of why people don't play tanks. You're attempting to fix the part that's the least problem - attempting to get the community to be more patient to new tanks is what you should be trying to do.

Here's a few links for your discussion:
http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/175326/blog/773080/
http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/6432645/blog/855066/

I'm sure you can find more on the Lodestone.

Or you can even try something like this:
http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/175326/blog/790474/

[saber_alter]

What does that even have to do with the frustrations of new players leveling a Gladiator, which causes them to drop the class and reroll as a non-tank?

It took me about 100 hours of game time to take a Gladiator from 1 to 50, without any of the 50% XP bonus from already having a lv50, and while doing the story mode. During that entire time, it was boring and felt slow as hell fighting. Sure, I only had to kill 5-10 enemies per quest but that is beside the point. It's not a very fun class to play leveling up, at all, and the low DPS is part of why its not fun.

You keep missing the point of this thread. Are you just here to troll or what? I mean really, your only examples involve characters who have 20-30 item levels above the content.

gld was my first class as well. I'm pretty sure it took me not even half that time for one to 50. i didn't find the dps to be terrible, i was willing to sacrifice damage for mitigation and health. i didn't find it too difficult to learn how to effectively rotate cooldowns, keep up AOE hate, stun mechanics, etc. i even leveled cnj to 34 just to improve.

but pld is boring. mostly because its too simplified, basic tank archetype. you have your tanking stance, a few mitigation moves, an aggro building combo, an aoe aggro ability, and a invincibility button. thats it. not really that fun. i really only take up the sword when it is necessary for me to (like when someone needs a tank badly).

i don't want a tanky dps. i don't want a jack-of-all-trades. i like paladin, but in terms of entertainment it's boring. i just want something that is more than a mind-numbing do this rotation over and over to hold hate class with a mitigation tack on.

[h3ll0]

it's unrealistic to expect a tank to have the same dps as a dps class. The perks of a leveling as a tank in FFXIV far outweighs their low dps. Leveling any class is not particularly fun (especially if you already have another 50 as you've gone through those contents already), unless you enjoy leveling alts. Tanks are in demand for dungeons, and having near instant queue even at low levels is far better than solo queuing as a dps. And at low levels, I would be willing to give up some dps for instant queues.

All things being equal, a tank does just fine even if he is out geared by the dps by a bit. I was tanking against relic+1 when i first turn 50 with only job quest gear. If you are having issues tanking, it is your party's job (dps and heals) to adjust to your needs. And any dps stupid enough to blame an under geared tank for failure to hold agro when they aren't doing their part just shows how bad of a player they are. IT IS THE TANKS' JOB TO BUILD THREAT, IT IS THE PARTY'S JOB TO KEEP BELOW THE TANKS THREAT.

That said, low lvl tanking is harder than endgame tanking as far as threat is concerned. But i was under the impression they help it a lot(?) by increasing the threat generated by flash.

Now on to tank dps, I see no real issue with it. Asking for more dps is like the other dps class asking for some tanking buffs too so they can be viable as OT encase the party can't fine a real tank. AND I don't see how making bigger numbers pop out is somehow going to make tanking more fun? Making tanks "more fun" is an issue with game mechanics and boss design, NOT an issue with the class's lack of muti function. Do I think the PLD (i don't play war) can use some improvements? YES. we've got 1 good combo rotation, and 1 pathetic damage rotation that is kind of pointless and does less damage than the threat rotation (unless i'm doing it wrong, in which case, someone please correct me) >.> But as far as Tanks being boring, I think tanking just requires a certain kind of personality to play it long term.
It's hard to be a tank without being a bit arrogant. OT maybe, but if you're tanking, generally you are leading (unless you're in a fc party and there's another leader). Proper tank SETS the pace of the run. ie: in dungeons, i progressively pull faster and faster until the dps is barely keeping up, then i tone it back a slight bit and that's the pace I go for that group. If i notice the healer is very good, i don't bother waiting for mp or buffs on bosses. Some tanking spots are more favorable for melee but bad for your camera angle. More often than not, DPS are not smart enough to think about where to dps from (I don't know why.....but i attribute to the fact that ALL dps have their brains turned off) ie: AK wall boss, I grab adds and sit on the left side while we burn the boss, instead of dps'ing on the right side away from me, dps just has to sit there with me "trying" to dodge the add aoes....i mean...really?

A good tank will make EVERYONE'S jobs easier, but no one will notice it except the tank. NO healer ever really notices when the tank pops their CD's because he notices other people taking damage and gives the healer a bit of a buffer to heal others. When i'm healing, I don't even notice them making my job easier when i'm focus healing. I don't think any melee dps ever notices how I take the effort to position all the mobs facing the same direction so they don't have to run to the other side for positional skills. And I'm fairly certain the healer never really notices when i slow down the pace so they can regen their mp without stopping so that by the time we reach the boss, they are almost full again. Or that all mobs are marked before we even get close enough to pull w/o slowing/stopping to mark. Or that on bosses where I can, I position bosses in locations that allows me to help dps adds even if i'm not suppose to pick up the adds because they don't have an agro table. Or that I interrupt most of the aoes targeted at melees, casters and healers, but never really for BRD's (they can shoot and run), or that I'm almost always able to instantly grab unintended agros when the other accidentally agro mobs we're skipping because I keep my camera flipped when running just incase someone pulls by accident. Or how the dps that's attacking the wrong target never pulls agro because i'm keeping an eye on it.

BUT! God forbid I step out of a red circle too late, or took too long positioning the boss just perfect, or the boss lands a series of unlucky crits, or missed a hit and lose agro for a sec.

So, why does no one want to play a tank? Because a tank is one of those classes where EVERY mistake you make is amplified and probably lead to a group wipe which mean EVERYONE will conclude that you are a bad tank. And when you do a very good job, no one will notice it. EVERYTHING is the tanks fault. I once got blamed in Titan HM for a dps's failure to dodge landslides. Apparently he's complaining that MY job (tank) being easier than his somehow leads to him being unable to dodge, and some of the other dps agrees..... I've also had healers blame me because they could not keep up with heals for sudden spike damages. Have you ever heard a dps getting blame for their inability to dodge Eruptions in Ifrit HM? Nope, it is always the tanks fault for failing 1 stun out of what? 30? and never the other players fault for their inability to dodge.

Tanking, it's a stressfully unappreciated job, and it's not for everyone.



... Oh yea...and you can't really move around, that's why people find it boring......it's not a class for kids and/or folks who have a hard time standing still for long periods of time.......lol.
The "boring" tank is mostly a boss mechanic issue, not necessary a class issue.

TL;DR Tanking is sooo stressful my hair turned white!! ......poor Broken ='(

[Roris]

I'll admit I hated Paladin in the old version because of how slow leveling it was but at least by 1.23 it was more involved or at least had more interesting abilities going on than the single combo 2 win off GCD abilities and cooldowns when they're up and you're dying ez mode thing it became, it had more reactive abilities and actual self healing and even neat stuff like Divine Regen, it really got simplified a lot. Always preferred Warrior since back then and I'd say it's even more fun now with more interesting abilities and mechanics at least in comparison to PLD and more than 1 combo, it even has a branching combo, though I still miss the old Steel Cyclone. Of course some people will throw out fun in favor of "it gets the job done" and current Paladin is right up to their alley.

[Marxam]

First of all tanking takes a special breed of people to be able to consider it "fun". For me I like high hp and high defense. High attack is a bonus which is why I main a War. All I can say is that there is not enough of a difference between the two current tanks. I think SE missed an opportunity for both pld and war jobs. The pld needs to have access to to raise (in battle) and cure II. The war needs more drain skills or at least more offensive cd's to get the dps interested in running a tank.

As for low dps of tanks, well... no shit they have low dps. They're TANKS! People who say that tanks lack dps and aren't fun because of it are wasting their breath. The real gripe with why people think tanks are no fun is because of the added pressure and responsibility of keeping yourself/party safe. There is a thread on this in the Tank Section and I would say the consensus is clear.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

The real gripe with why people think tanks are no fun is because of the added pressure and responsibility of keeping yourself/party safe.

But yet, holding hate and mitigate some dmg is they only ability. They are often first blamed for everything, like h3ll0 said:

IT IS THE TANKS' JOB TO BUILD THREAT, IT IS THE PARTY'S JOB TO KEEP BELOW THE TANKS THREAT.

They have no healing power, so that part is unquestionable. It build stress quick when you can't help it and still get blamed for other mistake. Is really main reason no one want play Tank job.

like you said:

The pld needs to have access to to raise (in battle) and cure II. The war needs more drain skills or at least more offensive cd's to get the dps interested in running a tank.

And i agree there, too bad, many in this thread seem butthurted about this idea, in that case Tank job will remain the top unwanted job forever. Don't get me wrong, i still love enough my PLD and WAR to play it with friend, but not with pug... No thanks, done with that part.

[Dano]

snip

Please speak for yourself only, don't try to pretend everyone has the same sentiment as you. You are missing the point of tanking in this game, which is to mitigate damage and mob management and all other aspect of tanking, leave the damage dealing to a proper DPS. If it's not fun for you then please switch to a DPS job or play Tera/Vindictus/GuildWars 2..etc where you can solo tank dps heal everything in one class.

I object and disagree to all your suggestions in changing the class and I sincerely hope that the developers don't take any advice from this thread.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

I sincerely hope that the developers don't take any advice from this thread.

Agree, DPS and healer can keep enjoy the wait in DF and PF, to me, it change absolutely nothing, and i love the instant DF pop (less than 15 sec) for every instance. Hell i can even ditch a DF, wait 30 min, join a new one, and is still less downtime than DPS 1h+ waiting.

I have np with DEV ignoring the Tank class problem.

[XNihili]

They have no healing power, so that part is unquestionable. It build stress quick when you can't help it and still get blamed for other mistake. Is really main reason no one want play Tank job.

When soloing, Warrior do have healing power, they are almost unkillable by a bunch of wild trash mob while DPS don't have much choice but to flee for their life when their HP is low. And a good Stoneskin is like 10% HP heal.
If Tank did have enough healing power to not need a healer, why would anyone invite healer ?