How to make tanks more fun to play (devs please read)

[Pr0c3ss0r]

the heck did I just read ?

Is so obvious, provoke give small amount of time for PLD to recover hate, by time you have no retard dps, it work good, but since DPS only care about they number, most of the time they careless about aggro snap giving no chance to PLD, even with provoke.

The first argument would be: You shouldn't have lose hate in first place. and that point easy how useless provoke is in that situation. At best, it give a warning to DPS to slow down, and PLD can recover.

Provoke in this game only gr8 to transfer hate with OT tank, or to pull the bugged Spiny plume.

[Sigred]

How is this thread still going?

[Pr0c3ss0r]

How is this thread still going?

no one forcing you to read it or post in it, and isn't this second time you posting this gr8 message? Trying to increase your number of post or something?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC9lRHHco0c

[Tridus1x]

I have to say the reason I don't tank anymore is player commendations. I queue up for the roulette and say "Hello." at the start, if people have questions I answer them. Then at the end of the dungeon, the amount of player comms I get for signing up for a needed role? Zero.

This happened about 10 times one week, that pretty much sealed the deal for me. The gil/tome rewards aren't even close to providing an incentive to queue as a tank, I only went for the player comms, and since I can't even get that there is no point.

[juniglee]

Again, uninstall the game asap if you that stupid. At first, your argument was about PLD holding hate, i told you how easy it is, now you talk to me about Obvious stuff like that. This is not anymore how GOOD a PLD can be, but how stupid a pld can be.

Tanking is more than just 123, there's a lot of other intricate knowledge, ones which you seem to have forgotten.

^Yet you've oh so conveniently decided to somehow oversee that statement above. Wasn't your argument simply spamming 123/flash/overpower?

[Giantbane]

I have to say the reason I don't tank anymore is player commendations. I queue up for the roulette and say "Hello." at the start, if people have questions I answer them. Then at the end of the dungeon, the amount of player comms I get for signing up for a needed role? Zero.

This happened about 10 times one week, that pretty much sealed the deal for me. The gil/tome rewards aren't even close to providing an incentive to queue as a tank, I only went for the player comms, and since I can't even get that there is no point.

I think the biggest problem is that they hide the player comms. The comm window should just pop up in the middle of the screen by default so you're encouraged to actually use it. Every other useless $@##$! message in this game just pops up at you, why don't they pop this up at the end of a run where it's pretty much guaranteed not to interfere with anything you're doing (because you just beat the dungeon).

They should also allow people who queue as a group to give out commendations. A couple of runs I have tanked, and by and large carried the group through AK (for instance, just about soloing demon wall after they all fell off by 50%). But because the 3 of them queued up as a group, 0 commendations :/

[Giantbane]

Just FYI here.


No GCD or cooldown on Shield Bash would not be overpowered, as the duration of the stun is very short and like most debuffs, stun is subject to diminishing returns.

This means that each time you stun a target, the stun duration lasts less, until the target becomes completely immune to stun for several more seconds.

This is the same reason that if you want to use Flash to blind Titan before a Mountain Buster you can't spam Flash like you normally would to hold aggro. You have to only use Flash right before he does his attack, otherwise he'll be immune to blind.

Due to diminishing returns, debuffs here aren't as powerful in FF XIV as it might be in some other games.

The main reason Shield Bash should be off the GCD is because many end-game enemies have a casting time shorter than the GCD, so if you are performing a Halone combo you will never get the Shield Bash off in time, because GCD is locking you out of using Shield Bash as a proper interrupt.

Stun on GCD, no cooldown = PLD
Stun off GCD, cooldown = WAR

you don't like it? play the other class. There are other options. Maybe the game could do a better idea of highlighting that in some way, but they are there.

Anyone who has ever off-tanked will feel the pain of low Paladin DPS. I don't even know why there was so many tanks for Crystal Tower. Even the stupidly low HP mobs that are just there to see if people are paying attention, like Iron Gloves during Acheron, the skeletons during Bone Dragon, or the balloons during the bomb fight.... a Paladin will never kill those adds by themselves. Which is pretty pathetic.

There's so many tanks in CT so you will hopefully get at least 1-2 good tanks out of 6 that can effectively tank for you and the rest can derp around without hurting the group so much.

Anyhow, tank dps is very competent when outside of tank stance. Sword oath, CoS, Spirits *should* get you *AT LEAST* 50% of the DPS of a normal DPS class (probably more). Now you may not get big flashy numbers with your abilities, but, as has been stated, you'll be getting a lot of constant dps from sword oath (something like a 16% boost to your DPS from sword oath alone). Fight or flight also has a 33% uptime for a 30% dps boost. That's *the best* DPS cooldown currently in the game, it blows away everything else in terms of duration, strength and cooldown. PLD is very capable by itself.

WAR on the other hand, focuses on boosting its own abilities more. DPS between WAR and PLD should be about equal outside of tank stance (WAR should be able to do something like 10-15% more while tanking), but since it provides bigger boosts to its abilities (as opposed to focusing more on auto-attacks and off GCD abilities, if you like numbers that are a little bigger and flashier, maybe that's the class for you.

The balance is that you can take WAY more punishment. Better defensive cooldowns, higher block/parry and 1k (or so) more HP in equal gear. You can push this higher by using STR accessories (especially pentamelded accessories) and/or putting points in STR for your attributes (not necessarily recommended, as usually the VIT is better for tanking, but the option is there if you really want to focus on being OT).

My 2nd Titan HM clear ever was 5 tanks (3 war, 2 pld), 1 mnk for limit break and 2 healers. Only 2 in the group had relics, the rest were there to get theirs. It was a little slower, but we were still able to break the heart and beat it. The healers *loved* it, because we were so much easier to keep alive than normal dps classes, as we had a lot more health to absorb and recover from mistakes. Tank DPS is fine.

Tanks are too durable compared to other classes (even without their tank stance active) to also be able to do the same amount of damage. There's no balance between classes that way.

The one (and only) thing I think they should give to PLD is to change shield swipe from an on GCD ability to a much weaker (50?) off GCD ability with a cooldown (6-10s). This should bring them in line with WAR DPS while tanking (which should be balanced better now that WAR and PLD durability was balanced out).

[Pr0c3ss0r]

^Yet you've oh so conveniently decided to somehow oversee that statement above. Wasn't your argument simply spamming 123/flash/overpower?

Oh gee, like how the healer depends on the tank to not let mobs run to him?

It was obvious you were talking about holding aggro, and i simply stated how easy that part was, and yet the next part you telling me is even more easy for people with half a brain.

Simple as DPS or healer shouldn't be in between a PLD and Monster. I don't even know why we even talking about that as it is so simple mechanic.

[Giantbane]

In the end, I blame the community for shortage of tanks. Yeah, there are some tanks that are jerks... probably a lot of the ones that still play the class are the ones that don't give a rats behind what you have to say about them and will tell you so. That doesn't really leave a polite lot. The nicer ones probably got weeded out as they were trying to learn to play by people trying to speed through things, who insisted on pulling first, complained about loss of aggro, and started throwing insults around at the first mistake. Until the job is less stressful, and more forgiving to play, it is always going to be in a minority regardless of skill names/nostalgia or damage done. The same goes for the healer class.

The community can improve the situation. Either by being more forgiving of tanks that aren't perfect and trying to help them become better or by defending tanks from jerks that try to belittle them because they made a mistake.

[silentwindfr]

i want to ask something to the player, like me, that have play tank since the release of ARR, what do you feel about the community? i means, what do you feel of the threatement dps and healer do us?

because for me it have become painfull to tank... seriously. people don't care of your jobs and when thing don't go like they want they are becoming means. the jobs of tank is boring as hell, but can become painfull... more we are stuff less the work is interesting. we do have more hp, we do generate way more hate... and we repeat the same combo... all the time.

you add this at the fact that DD (and even healer) don't really care and want to do the dungeon like they want (pull, dps what they want,...) and it make the tanking in FF14 horrible! the jobs is not hard... but it did become horrible, is not fun anymore, is not a game anymore too!
why the tank are soo thin in number? because of this! because DD and healer only want to rush and deal big number, they don't care about teamwork or if the tank know the drill or anything... you are the servant of the dd and the healer for do the dungeon like they want!

i say this screw this! when someone pull at my place? i don't move.
if the healer prefer dd and let me die, wanting me to use my CD for make up? i die!

we are a team, we are not the servant of the DD and the healer! if they want to have fun, fine... but we have the right to have fun too!

ps: add a new class for tank, will solve nothing! until SE make the Tanking fun... and change some stuff, like add an ilevel sync for the dungeon... the number of tank will drop.
get more stuff and screw the challenge of the dungeon is not right.

1) make the tanking more fun, indeed we want challenge, but repeat the same combo over and over and over... is simply horrible!
2) add an ilevel sync to the dungeon, because arrive into a dungeon where normally you must arrive with an ilevel 55-60 and come with an ilevel 80-90 lead to stupid action of the DD and healer! screwing the challenge of the dungeon! (and it will be worst with the 2.2 and the new tiers)