How to make tanks more fun to play (devs please read)

[Sunarie]

So.. I think you kind of hit on why some tanks are so unpopular in your post.. unfortunately I also believe you focused too much on things that wouldn't ultimately matter. In the grand scheme of things, the amount of avid fans (those being people who have played every FF game, know the lore/skill sets for them, and love almost all things Final Fantasy) are going to be fairly slim compared to the run of the mill Final Fantasy games (fan of the playstyle, but don't really know all the lore, may have a favorite character, but probably can't name all of the skills) combined with the average MMO player who may not have a vested enough interest in Final Fantasy to even be considered a fan.

I also think you superimposed the tank role onto previous Final Fantasy games. I never considered Cloud a tank while running through FF7, nor do I consider Lightning a tank when going through 13. I actually don't really consider any of the characters a tank. Maybe that's just me, but playing something iconic doesn't factor into the role I am choosing to play.

The real brunt of the issue is the stress level. As has been mentioned before, tank roles (and healers) are stressful. Any mistakes you make are apparent, that goes for any MMO, not just this one. This one does take it a bit further in that tanking here is more difficult than tanking in other MMOs. It takes more concentration here and is less of a spam any of the hate building abilities. You can do abilities out of order in other MMOs and still hold threat, not as well, but it's still possible. Try that here and people are pulling off you in no time. Add to that the folks that want to rush through everything because that's how every other mainstream MMO works and you have a lot of frustrated people being scolded by their party.

The low damage also doesn't help, but that's not really going away. Even with increased damage of other MMOs, on boss fights tanks are still bottom by a fairly wide margin. I will give that a dps getting killed in a 10 man party in another game isn't always a big deal though, compared to losing a dps in an 8 man fight here (primals/coil). A DPS dying for most dungeons, however, can happen. Prior to 2.1 I've even had a dps afk for an entire dungeon and still ran it just fine. The only real dps check I can think of that will cause a wipe is Demon Wall, and even that you can skate by (it'll be close) if your healer is helping out.

I don't like some of the skill changes you suggested. I think Cover would be too over powered if it functioned as you described. I like Provoke as it is now for the most part (though I do wish they'd add a "attack you for 3 seconds" to it) because it requires dps to pay attention and stop attacking if they don't want to get hit. Having a stun that has no cooldown to it, and is off the GCD timer just screams overpowered to me as well.

I'll agree with effects applying prior to the animation, and that combat feels slow.. I disagree that removing the global cooldown will make it feel faster. Yes, you can use the skills faster, but in the end it's still the same 3-4 button rotation for most pulls.

In the end, I blame the community for shortage of tanks. Yeah, there are some tanks that are jerks... probably a lot of the ones that still play the class are the ones that don't give a rats behind what you have to say about them and will tell you so. That doesn't really leave a polite lot. The nicer ones probably got weeded out as they were trying to learn to play by people trying to speed through things, who insisted on pulling first, complained about loss of aggro, and started throwing insults around at the first mistake. Until the job is less stressful, and more forgiving to play, it is always going to be in a minority regardless of skill names/nostalgia or damage done. The same goes for the healer class.

[Casper]

I like Provoke as it is now for the most part (though I do wish they'd add a "attack you for 3 seconds" to it) because it requires dps to pay attention and stop attacking if they don't want to get hit.

I don't think you need any of this "taunt" crap. What i would like is to get a layer of hate added to it, not just "hate +1". Doesn't have to be a whole lot, something equivalent to one flash basically. As it is, when you use provoke, the hate get extremely flimsy for several seconds if you don't have a rage of halone to follow up, sometime bouncing several time each time a tank scratch his bottom before stabilizing; adding just a bit more hate margin would solve the problematic cases.

Edit: problematic cases: tank taking back the hate due to an auto attack, or due to the use of a stance switch. On titan this can lead to wiping the whole party through a party wide mountain buster. I know, i know, you can just plan for it and have the halone ready, but it would just be quality of life improvement that you get enough lead so that auto attacks and buff use don't switch it back, and would in no way be overpowered.

[Sunarie]

sinp

I can't really speak for an instance like Titan.. boss threat has never really been an issue for me. The specific instance I had in mind when I stated the "attack you" thing was for the spiny plume in Garuda Ex, or the occasional mob in an aoe mess that gets pulled away by a ranged person. If it's on a healer and timing is bad then it can be annoying to pull off at a range with tornadoes up as one shield lob isn't always enough to push over healing aggro, which is why I typically don't hit it just once. In other instances where threat is traded I will always have my combo up to Rage before I use provoke so the very next skill is that, if it isn't up, then I take the few seconds to make sure it is (I can't say I've ever been caught off guard when it's my turn to pull the boss, but our other tank also calls out when he's at however many stacks of a thing in teamspeak).

The only instance where I run into difficulty is if the mob I'm provoking is at range, which either your or my solution would work for (if you haven't hit the mob within 3 seconds of using provoke then you're doing something wrong). Neither is a direct "I win" button, as one flash or 3 seconds, isn't really a ton of threat build up, and the person that had pulled off you will still need to watch what they're doing.

Edited to add: Also, I'm not saying there aren't things they can do to make life easier over here in FF land. I can't tell you how frustrating it is everytime Hallowed Ground goes on cooldown but I die anyway, or my silence goes on cooldown and the enemy still casts. I just don't think that's the reason for the tank shortage. I attribute that to stress and have found tank shortages to be global across any MMO with the Holy Trinity. I've found duty finder queues as a dps in this game no longer than duty/dungeon finder queues in other games... and in other games my tank queue is always instant, with healer queue coming in as second with a few minutes, sometimes being instant. Not really different from this game either. So I'd say the ratios seem about the same for the times I play. Heck, if I'm new to an MMO that's been out for a while, I'll avoid a tank even if I want to play as one until I've gone through the content as a healer or dps first. The expectation on tanks is generally higher because they're seen as the leader (most of the time).

[therpgfanatic]

Having a stun that has no cooldown to it, and is off the GCD timer just screams overpowered to me as well.

Just FYI here.


No GCD or cooldown on Shield Bash would not be overpowered, as the duration of the stun is very short and like most debuffs, stun is subject to diminishing returns.

This means that each time you stun a target, the stun duration lasts less, until the target becomes completely immune to stun for several more seconds.

This is the same reason that if you want to use Flash to blind Titan before a Mountain Buster you can't spam Flash like you normally would to hold aggro. You have to only use Flash right before he does his attack, otherwise he'll be immune to blind.

Due to diminishing returns, debuffs here aren't as powerful in FF XIV as it might be in some other games.

The main reason Shield Bash should be off the GCD is because many end-game enemies have a casting time shorter than the GCD, so if you are performing a Halone combo you will never get the Shield Bash off in time, because GCD is locking you out of using Shield Bash as a proper interrupt.

Anyone who has ever off-tanked will feel the pain of low Paladin DPS. I don't even know why there was so many tanks for Crystal Tower. Even the stupidly low HP mobs that are just there to see if people are paying attention, like Iron Gloves during Acheron, the skeletons during Bone Dragon, or the balloons during the bomb fight.... a Paladin will never kill those adds by themselves. Which is pretty pathetic.

[Giantbane]

Just FYI here.


No GCD or cooldown on Shield Bash would not be overpowered, as the duration of the stun is very short and like most debuffs, stun is subject to diminishing returns.

This means that each time you stun a target, the stun duration lasts less, until the target becomes completely immune to stun for several more seconds.

This is the same reason that if you want to use Flash to blind Titan before a Mountain Buster you can't spam Flash like you normally would to hold aggro. You have to only use Flash right before he does his attack, otherwise he'll be immune to blind.

Due to diminishing returns, debuffs here aren't as powerful in FF XIV as it might be in some other games.

The main reason Shield Bash should be off the GCD is because many end-game enemies have a casting time shorter than the GCD, so if you are performing a Halone combo you will never get the Shield Bash off in time, because GCD is locking you out of using Shield Bash as a proper interrupt.

Stun on GCD, no cooldown = PLD
Stun off GCD, cooldown = WAR

you don't like it? play the other class. There are other options. Maybe the game could do a better idea of highlighting that in some way, but they are there.

Anyone who has ever off-tanked will feel the pain of low Paladin DPS. I don't even know why there was so many tanks for Crystal Tower. Even the stupidly low HP mobs that are just there to see if people are paying attention, like Iron Gloves during Acheron, the skeletons during Bone Dragon, or the balloons during the bomb fight.... a Paladin will never kill those adds by themselves. Which is pretty pathetic.

There's so many tanks in CT so you will hopefully get at least 1-2 good tanks out of 6 that can effectively tank for you and the rest can derp around without hurting the group so much.

Anyhow, tank dps is very competent when outside of tank stance. Sword oath, CoS, Spirits *should* get you *AT LEAST* 50% of the DPS of a normal DPS class (probably more). Now you may not get big flashy numbers with your abilities, but, as has been stated, you'll be getting a lot of constant dps from sword oath (something like a 16% boost to your DPS from sword oath alone). Fight or flight also has a 33% uptime for a 30% dps boost. That's *the best* DPS cooldown currently in the game, it blows away everything else in terms of duration, strength and cooldown. PLD is very capable by itself.

WAR on the other hand, focuses on boosting its own abilities more. DPS between WAR and PLD should be about equal outside of tank stance (WAR should be able to do something like 10-15% more while tanking), but since it provides bigger boosts to its abilities (as opposed to focusing more on auto-attacks and off GCD abilities, if you like numbers that are a little bigger and flashier, maybe that's the class for you.

The balance is that you can take WAY more punishment. Better defensive cooldowns, higher block/parry and 1k (or so) more HP in equal gear. You can push this higher by using STR accessories (especially pentamelded accessories) and/or putting points in STR for your attributes (not necessarily recommended, as usually the VIT is better for tanking, but the option is there if you really want to focus on being OT).

My 2nd Titan HM clear ever was 5 tanks (3 war, 2 pld), 1 mnk for limit break and 2 healers. Only 2 in the group had relics, the rest were there to get theirs. It was a little slower, but we were still able to break the heart and beat it. The healers *loved* it, because we were so much easier to keep alive than normal dps classes, as we had a lot more health to absorb and recover from mistakes. Tank DPS is fine.

Tanks are too durable compared to other classes (even without their tank stance active) to also be able to do the same amount of damage. There's no balance between classes that way.

The one (and only) thing I think they should give to PLD is to change shield swipe from an on GCD ability to a much weaker (50?) off GCD ability with a cooldown (6-10s). This should bring them in line with WAR DPS while tanking (which should be balanced better now that WAR and PLD durability was balanced out).

[therpgfanatic]

My 2nd Titan HM clear ever was 5 tanks (3 war, 2 pld), 1 mnk for limit break and 2 healers. Only 2 in the group had relics, the rest were there to get theirs. It was a little slower, but we were still able to break the heart and beat it. The healers *loved* it, because we were so much easier to keep alive than normal dps classes, as we had a lot more health to absorb and recover from mistakes. Tank DPS is fine.

LOL

Video or it didn't happen.

Seriously. Nevermind that tank DPS is so low you'd be struggling to break folk free of stones and take down the heart. And because it takes longer to break people free of stones, you'd be highly, highly unlikely to even shave off half of Titan's heart by the time you freed the first person (never mind the 2nd one he does during that phase).

A party like that isn't even balanced to make the limit break bar increase at a decent pace, so claiming that was your strategy is silly.

The best weapon a PLD could have pre-relic is a HQ Mailbreaker, which I used before I got my relic. I know first hand the damage is pathetic, who are you trying to kid?

[Gilthas]

LOL

Video or it didn't happen.

Seriously. Nevermind that tank DPS is so low you'd be struggling to break folk free of stones and take down the heart.

A party like that isn't even balanced to make the limit break bar increase at a decent pace, so claiming that was your strategy is silly.

The best weapon a PLD could have pre-relic is a HQ Mailbreaker, which I used before I got my relic. The damage is pathetic, who are you trying to kid?

I'm pretty sure I read a topic back in the day (before 2.1) about a group of 5 WARs doing Titan HM because no one wanted to do Titan HM with WARs. So yeah, his post is easily believable.

[Giantbane]

LOL

Video or it didn't happen.

Seriously. Nevermind that tank DPS is so low you'd be struggling to break folk free of stones and take down the heart.

A party like that isn't even balanced to make the limit break bar increase at a decent pace, so claiming that was your strategy is silly.

Obviously I'm lying.

Believe what you want. Tank DPS wasn't a problem whatsoever for breaking stones, and we just auto attacked for P1 to build up the limit break for the heart (2 bars was enough to ensure heart was killed).

Here's a different version:

2 WAR, 4 PLD, 2 healers, no DPS limit break:

http://www.twitch.tv/neamberthal/c/3157588

Maybe you need to not suck? (sorry, you did insist I was making it up)

[therpgfanatic]

Obviously I'm lying.

Believe what you want. Tank DPS wasn't a problem whatsoever for breaking stones, and we just auto attacked for P1 to build up the limit break for the heart (2 bars was enough to ensure heart was killed).

Here's a different version:

2 WAR, 4 PLD, 2 healers, no DPS limit break:

http://www.twitch.tv/neamberthal/c/3157588

Maybe you need to not suck? (sorry, you did insist I was making it up)

Maybe you should watch the videos you link to?

Every character in that video has i90+ gear and +1 relics.

You claimed a scenario where only 2 folks even had a relic, and everyone else was not.

This video is a bunch of totally overgeared people, and even they wiped a few times. That's why the video starts with almost 2 limit bars filled.


Claiming tank DPS is fine so long as you are overgeared for the encounter is absolutely moronic and missing the entire point of this thread.

[Giantbane]

Maybe you should watch the videos you link to?

Every character in that video has i95 gear and +1 relics.

You claimed a scenario where only 2 folks had a relic, and everyone else was not.

This video is a bunch of totally overgeared people, and even they wiped a few times. That's why the video starts with almost 2 limit bars filled.


Claiming tank DPS is fine so long as you are overgeared for the encounter is absolutely moronic and missing the entire point of this thread.

i95 = allagan weapons, how many allagan weapons do you see?

They died? so what. Lots of groups with 5 dps and 1 tank die attempting titan. Does that mean DPS classes are gimp?

And who cares if their gear is better? First, there's a guy in hoplite in there and some are wearing darklight gear with their +1 weapon, so it's not all i90. Second, if tank DPS was so "pathetic" then it wouldn't matter what they had.

It also wasn't a clean run. 1 PLD fell off at 50% and they lost another healer after that. And they got hit by plumes and bombs too. The benefit of them all being tanks is they can live through it (even in sword oath, no defiance) and they're still standing to do DPS.

Did you forget that 6 tanks means no DPS limit break whatsoever. The difference between my group and this group is that we had a monk for the limit break. The only real possible sticking point in this fight for tanks would be not enough DPS to break the heart. By making sure we built up two bars for the LB, we cleared the heart phase easily, even if someone had fallen off the ledge.

As the poster said above, multiple tank groups against titan were a thing before 2.1. As was stated, nobody wanted to bring warriors because PLD were just flat better at staying alive before 2.1 and you don't need 2 tanks for this fight at all. It's very possible whatever you want to believe.

EDIT: i'm also not saying that tank DPS is fine in that they can wholly and totally replace a DPS class. I'm saying it's fine in that they still provide a solid contribution to the group, and yes, when you over gear content, can replace a DPS class that is geared properly to some extent.