How to make tanks more fun to play (devs please read)

[XNihili]

The more I read this thread, the more I am baffled.
Tank should be able to do more damage, tank should be able not to depend on a healer, tank should be Squall or Cloud, tank should consume the English with fireballs from his eyes, and bolts of lightning from his arse.
Yeah right that would be more enjoyable and we will have tons of tank. Only tanks though.

[Sunarie]

So.. I think you kind of hit on why some tanks are so unpopular in your post.. unfortunately I also believe you focused too much on things that wouldn't ultimately matter. In the grand scheme of things, the amount of avid fans (those being people who have played every FF game, know the lore/skill sets for them, and love almost all things Final Fantasy) are going to be fairly slim compared to the run of the mill Final Fantasy games (fan of the playstyle, but don't really know all the lore, may have a favorite character, but probably can't name all of the skills) combined with the average MMO player who may not have a vested enough interest in Final Fantasy to even be considered a fan.

I also think you superimposed the tank role onto previous Final Fantasy games. I never considered Cloud a tank while running through FF7, nor do I consider Lightning a tank when going through 13. I actually don't really consider any of the characters a tank. Maybe that's just me, but playing something iconic doesn't factor into the role I am choosing to play.

The real brunt of the issue is the stress level. As has been mentioned before, tank roles (and healers) are stressful. Any mistakes you make are apparent, that goes for any MMO, not just this one. This one does take it a bit further in that tanking here is more difficult than tanking in other MMOs. It takes more concentration here and is less of a spam any of the hate building abilities. You can do abilities out of order in other MMOs and still hold threat, not as well, but it's still possible. Try that here and people are pulling off you in no time. Add to that the folks that want to rush through everything because that's how every other mainstream MMO works and you have a lot of frustrated people being scolded by their party.

The low damage also doesn't help, but that's not really going away. Even with increased damage of other MMOs, on boss fights tanks are still bottom by a fairly wide margin. I will give that a dps getting killed in a 10 man party in another game isn't always a big deal though, compared to losing a dps in an 8 man fight here (primals/coil). A DPS dying for most dungeons, however, can happen. Prior to 2.1 I've even had a dps afk for an entire dungeon and still ran it just fine. The only real dps check I can think of that will cause a wipe is Demon Wall, and even that you can skate by (it'll be close) if your healer is helping out.

I don't like some of the skill changes you suggested. I think Cover would be too over powered if it functioned as you described. I like Provoke as it is now for the most part (though I do wish they'd add a "attack you for 3 seconds" to it) because it requires dps to pay attention and stop attacking if they don't want to get hit. Having a stun that has no cooldown to it, and is off the GCD timer just screams overpowered to me as well.

I'll agree with effects applying prior to the animation, and that combat feels slow.. I disagree that removing the global cooldown will make it feel faster. Yes, you can use the skills faster, but in the end it's still the same 3-4 button rotation for most pulls.

In the end, I blame the community for shortage of tanks. Yeah, there are some tanks that are jerks... probably a lot of the ones that still play the class are the ones that don't give a rats behind what you have to say about them and will tell you so. That doesn't really leave a polite lot. The nicer ones probably got weeded out as they were trying to learn to play by people trying to speed through things, who insisted on pulling first, complained about loss of aggro, and started throwing insults around at the first mistake. Until the job is less stressful, and more forgiving to play, it is always going to be in a minority regardless of skill names/nostalgia or damage done. The same goes for the healer class.

[Casper]

I like Provoke as it is now for the most part (though I do wish they'd add a "attack you for 3 seconds" to it) because it requires dps to pay attention and stop attacking if they don't want to get hit.

I don't think you need any of this "taunt" crap. What i would like is to get a layer of hate added to it, not just "hate +1". Doesn't have to be a whole lot, something equivalent to one flash basically. As it is, when you use provoke, the hate get extremely flimsy for several seconds if you don't have a rage of halone to follow up, sometime bouncing several time each time a tank scratch his bottom before stabilizing; adding just a bit more hate margin would solve the problematic cases.

Edit: problematic cases: tank taking back the hate due to an auto attack, or due to the use of a stance switch. On titan this can lead to wiping the whole party through a party wide mountain buster. I know, i know, you can just plan for it and have the halone ready, but it would just be quality of life improvement that you get enough lead so that auto attacks and buff use don't switch it back, and would in no way be overpowered.

[Anienai]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6413023416
http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/04/08/wh...-tank-or-heal/
http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...ack-tanks.html
http://tera-forums.enmasse.com/forum...me-lacks-tanks
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/67805...eborn/68405548

Swtor is under maintenance, but they have similar threads.

I avoid this issue by letting bad dps/healers die when they run ahead and pull.

[Sunarie]

sinp

I can't really speak for an instance like Titan.. boss threat has never really been an issue for me. The specific instance I had in mind when I stated the "attack you" thing was for the spiny plume in Garuda Ex, or the occasional mob in an aoe mess that gets pulled away by a ranged person. If it's on a healer and timing is bad then it can be annoying to pull off at a range with tornadoes up as one shield lob isn't always enough to push over healing aggro, which is why I typically don't hit it just once. In other instances where threat is traded I will always have my combo up to Rage before I use provoke so the very next skill is that, if it isn't up, then I take the few seconds to make sure it is (I can't say I've ever been caught off guard when it's my turn to pull the boss, but our other tank also calls out when he's at however many stacks of a thing in teamspeak).

The only instance where I run into difficulty is if the mob I'm provoking is at range, which either your or my solution would work for (if you haven't hit the mob within 3 seconds of using provoke then you're doing something wrong). Neither is a direct "I win" button, as one flash or 3 seconds, isn't really a ton of threat build up, and the person that had pulled off you will still need to watch what they're doing.

Edited to add: Also, I'm not saying there aren't things they can do to make life easier over here in FF land. I can't tell you how frustrating it is everytime Hallowed Ground goes on cooldown but I die anyway, or my silence goes on cooldown and the enemy still casts. I just don't think that's the reason for the tank shortage. I attribute that to stress and have found tank shortages to be global across any MMO with the Holy Trinity. I've found duty finder queues as a dps in this game no longer than duty/dungeon finder queues in other games... and in other games my tank queue is always instant, with healer queue coming in as second with a few minutes, sometimes being instant. Not really different from this game either. So I'd say the ratios seem about the same for the times I play. Heck, if I'm new to an MMO that's been out for a while, I'll avoid a tank even if I want to play as one until I've gone through the content as a healer or dps first. The expectation on tanks is generally higher because they're seen as the leader (most of the time).

[Shneibel]

1. Cover needs to be a toggle like Sword and Shield Oath. It needs to apply to the entire party and work more like it did in previous Final Fantasy games, or at least like its FF6 incarnation. It should trigger its damage absorption effect when any party member is at 25% of their max HP, and let the tank absorb that damage while also generating threat for the tank on the attacking mob. This change will reduce 50% of the stress caused by the limitations of Provoke (it often makes me the top aggro but then I quickly lose it ‘cause I have to wait on global cooldown triggered by Shield Lob / Rage of Halone) and the crappy targeting system on the PS3.

the heck did I just read ?

[Lord_Zlatan]

some general thoughts on the OP.

I dont agree that name changes would make tanking more fun, but it would give the appearance of the class being "cooler". I would definitly rather have classic FF attack names on my hotbar, but in all honesty, "rage of halone" is a pretty intense name. I like it. Would I prefer Blitzblade? (no) Renzokuken (yes) Omnislash (no). Some better naming or classic naming would be cooler (there is nothing savage about savage blade), but its not a deal breaker imo.


The heart of the matter is that the classes dont feel FF at all. That I will agree with. I made my char with purple hair, green eyes, rolled a GLD and wanted to be Cecil... I have since changed because I dont feel like Cecil. There are no real paladin abilities for use to use... Why cant I heal party members? Why cant I have more protection skills for others aside from stoneskin? Where are the Chivalry abilities from FFTA? Where is reprisal? Mighty Guard? Agrias abilities from FFT?

Also, I feel like PLD doesnt need a massive damage buff, but they do need some OGCD skills with long(er) cool downs that do massive damage. CoS should be longer CD with bigger damage and bigger dots. Blade beam AoE with a 3 minute coold down. This is where the iconic ff attacks can be added for PLD.

Also, the tank LB needs to be changed (should be class to class LBs, but w/e). Make everyone invincible for 10 seconds.. give everyone reflect damage for 20 seconds... something more than rampart for everyone.

[Lord_Zlatan]

The more I read this thread, the more I am baffled.
Tank should be able to do more damage, tank should be able not to depend on a healer, tank should be Squall or Cloud, tank should consume the English with fireballs from his eyes, and bolts of lightning from his arse.
Yeah right that would be more enjoyable and we will have tons of tank. Only tanks though.

William Wallace... AYE! IVE HEARD!

[therpgfanatic]

Having a stun that has no cooldown to it, and is off the GCD timer just screams overpowered to me as well.

Just FYI here.


No GCD or cooldown on Shield Bash would not be overpowered, as the duration of the stun is very short and like most debuffs, stun is subject to diminishing returns.

This means that each time you stun a target, the stun duration lasts less, until the target becomes completely immune to stun for several more seconds.

This is the same reason that if you want to use Flash to blind Titan before a Mountain Buster you can't spam Flash like you normally would to hold aggro. You have to only use Flash right before he does his attack, otherwise he'll be immune to blind.

Due to diminishing returns, debuffs here aren't as powerful in FF XIV as it might be in some other games.

The main reason Shield Bash should be off the GCD is because many end-game enemies have a casting time shorter than the GCD, so if you are performing a Halone combo you will never get the Shield Bash off in time, because GCD is locking you out of using Shield Bash as a proper interrupt.

Anyone who has ever off-tanked will feel the pain of low Paladin DPS. I don't even know why there was so many tanks for Crystal Tower. Even the stupidly low HP mobs that are just there to see if people are paying attention, like Iron Gloves during Acheron, the skeletons during Bone Dragon, or the balloons during the bomb fight.... a Paladin will never kill those adds by themselves. Which is pretty pathetic.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

Sure. I'll pull Titan and spam 123 while he's facing the party.

Again, uninstall the game asap if you that stupid. At first, your argument was about PLD holding hate, i told you how easy it is, now you talk to me about Obvious stuff like that. This is not anymore how GOOD a PLD can be, but how stupid a pld can be.