How to make tanks more fun to play (devs please read)

[therpgfanatic]

We can't call this Spiky when it is not random. If you consider 3 GCD being a hate cycle, then the combo is a consistent, steady yet more efficient threat generation.

On the long run, which method is having generated the most hate ? Yours or this ?

Spiky is not necessarily random. Spiky means exactly what it implies; there are large spikes in the chart when looking at the data over a period of time.

(Besides in math nothing is truly random, there is always a pattern)

It's not about the "long run". It is about where the hate levels currently are based on the hundred odd factors taking place during an encounter.

Once again, in eight mans. Every single time I try to do the normal Paladin tanking rotation described in http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/122272-Guide-Paladin-Tanking-Compendium-2.0.1 I cannot maintain threat on the mob.

Every. Single. Time.

The only thing that gains and maintains threat for me is spamming Halone.

Doing the combo gives opportunities to lose threat, meaning the mob takes off to go attack DPS / healer. Hard to generate aggro on an enemy running away from you when all you have is Provoke's +1 enmity bonus, and Shield lob on a cooldown.

Yeah, it is probably because my gear is 20-30 item levels below everyone else. But that won't change unless I can keep the boss on me, there is no other way to gear up. Even if I wanted to buy HQ crafted gear I would still need to buy crafting items with tomes and sell them on the AH house to make enough cash to buy said gear.

So I do what I can to keep aggro and do the runs, as does any other tank in my situation. And it's not fun. I am sure it is a contributing factor to why there aren't as many tanks.

And its a simple thing for SE to fix, and will result in more people playing tanks.

[Meshico]

Please use combo...everyone please use combo's. I don't need a chart to tell me this...and any tank that does combo's understand's this.

Any tank that doesn't use combo's then uses said combo's will understand this.

-Tari

p.s. Please use combo's.

[Aria_Mihgo]

Let's compare spamming (1) Rage of Halone vs. (2) Enmity combo for longer than 6 seconds:

3 Seconds: (1) 750 enm (2) 225 enm = RoH wins by 525
6 Seconds: (1) 1500 enm (2) 1125 enm = RoH wins by 375
9 Seconds: (1) 2250 enm (2) 3075 enm = Rotation by 825
12 Seconds: (1) 3000 enm (2) 3300 enm = Rotation by 300
15 Seconds: (1) 3750 enm (2) 4425 enm = Rotation by 675
18 Seconds: (1) 4500 enm (2) 6150 enm = Rotation by 1650
21 Seconds: (1) 5250 enm (2) 6375 enm = Rotation by 1125
24 Seconds: (1) 6000 enm (2) 7500 enm = Rotation by 1500
27 Seconds: (1) 6750 enm (2) 9225 enm = Rotation by 2475


So, let's say you start with a shield lob to pull, then begin attacking with your enmity rotation, but immediately after fast blade you lose hate to a over geared DPS, all it takes is using savage blade (to move the combo along), a provoke (which will now give you a boost to enmity based on how much more enmity the DPS has compared to you), and then rage of halone, at which point you will have built more hate than simply spamming Rage of Halone.

Every 3 seconds after that, you will be gaining more enmity than if you were to have just spammed Rage of Halone.
Additionally, you can use Spirits Within & Circle of Scorn to do more dmg which will also add to your total enmity (especially with shield oath's or even sword oath's multiplier).

Is there any error to this?

Yes, an overzealous DPS will pull hate from you within the first 4-6 seconds, but that's just bad DPS performance. For example, in Titan Ex as BRD or BLM, you can go all out as long as you put up quelling strikes. By starting with debuff or DoT attacks as other DPS, that's another way not to pull hate in the first 6 seconds.

[Meshico]

As a wimpy DD that pulls hate from people that spam Rage of Halone/Butchers Block...use combo's.

Aria Mihgo...Please tell me you actually do use Combo's.

If you don't its your choice and i won't bog you down...just, just tell me you combo ( even if its a lie )

[Aria_Mihgo]

As someone who was trying to point out that after 9 seconds, spamming RoH never draws more enmity than the combo.... duh? (Yes. Of course I use the combo.)

[therpgfanatic]

Let's compare spamming (1) Rage of Halone vs. (2) Enmity combo for longer than 6 seconds:
3 Seconds: (1) 750 enm (2) 225 enm = RoH wins by 525
6 Seconds: (1) 1500 enm (2) 1125 enm = RoH wins by 375
9 Seconds: (1) 2250 enm (2) 3075 enm = Rotation by 825
12 Seconds: (1) 3000 enm (2) 3300 enm = Rotation by 300
15 Seconds: (1) 3750 enm (2) 4425 enm = Rotation by 675
18 Seconds: (1) 4500 enm (2) 6150 enm = Rotation by 1650
21 Seconds: (1) 5250 enm (2) 6375 enm = Rotation by 1125
24 Seconds: (1) 6000 enm (2) 7500 enm = Rotation by 1500
27 Seconds: (1) 6750 enm (2) 9225 enm = Rotation by 2475


So, let's say you start with a shield lob to pull, then begin attacking with your enmity rotation, but immediately after fast blade you lose hate to a over geared DPS, all it takes is using savage blade (to move the combo along), a provoke (which will now give you a boost to enmity based on how much more enmity the DPS has compared to you), and then rage of halone, at which point you will have built more hate than simply spamming Rage of Halone.

Every 3 seconds after that, you will be gaining more enmity than if you were to have just spammed Rage of Halone.
Additionally, you can use Spirits Within & Circle of Scorn to do more dmg which will also add to your total enmity (especially with shield oath's or even sword oath's multiplier).

Is there any error to this?

Yes, an overzealous DPS will pull hate from you within the first 4-6 seconds, but that's just bad DPS performance. For example, in Titan Ex as BRD or BLM, you can go all out as long as you put up quelling strikes. By starting with debuff or DoT attacks as other DPS, that's another way not to pull hate in the first 6 seconds.

You just don't get it, do you? You can't do the spike threat combo if the mob takes off after Fast Blade because you didn't maintain steady aggro on it.

Provoke is worthless unless your Shield Lob can deal enough damage to push your threat above whoever drew aggro off you, usually a DPS or healer. If it's a DPS (or healer who has decided to overheal you) you'll never regain aggro with Shield lob because you can't push out enough Shield lobs with the long GCD. You will have to run over to the enemy, which mean you stop Flash / Halone and give opportunities to lose the whole pile of enemies / boss.

Go put on your item lv 55 AF set with a GC weapon and try to main tank a Duty Finder main story run. Tell me how it goes for you against all the i90 folks.

[Aria_Mihgo]

Yep, I don't get why you can't just run to where the mob is beating on the DPS (especially if it were a melee that was pulling hate).
So let's say the boss "takes off" within the first 6 seconds to chase a ranged DPS ... you run after it and continue your combo, then move it back into place.

Also BLM can take 2 hits with Manawall, or reduce their enmity generation with quelling strikes, BRD can also use quelling strikes.
So let the overzealous DPS (especially if they really are i90) tank for a second or two. It probably won't kill them, and if it did, maybe they shouldn't be pulling so much hate from the get go.

[therpgfanatic]

Yep, I don't get why you can't just run to where the mob is beating on the DPS (especially if it were a melee that was pulling hate).
So let's say the boss "takes off" within the first 6 seconds to chase a ranged DPS ... you run after it and continue your combo, then move it back into place.

Also BLM can take 2 hits with Manawall, or reduce their enmity generation with quelling strikes, BRD can also use quelling strikes.
So let the overzealous DPS (especially if they really are i90) tank for a second or two. It probably won't kill them, and if it did, maybe they shouldn't be pulling so much hate from the get go.

I just told you. Running over to the other enemy means you STOP focusing on what you were tanking before and give opportunities to lose the threat lead on it.

Basically your theorycrafting only works under the most ideal situations. You are completely ignoring the actual realities encountered when playing the game, which is bad DPS or not, when the party wipes the tank gets blamed and people are quick to vote abandon.

I lost count of the number of times I had a group decide to abandon Ifrit Hard after 1 wipe because the DPS couldn't be bothered to take down the nails, or people who can't get the kill order correct on King Mog. The DPS blame the tanks / healers and then abandon the encounter. That's the reality of the gameplay you are not taking into consideration, so any ideas that involve asking unreasonable players to be reasonable are not practical solutions to balance the game.

Expected Player behavior is not how the game should be balanced. You balance according to actual player behavior.

[Aria_Mihgo]

To the OTHER enemy? I thought you were talking about boss fights for the main story run?
Are you just talking about holding all the hate on all the mobs when running through trash mobs in story missions?
Then yeah, of course you can't hold all the hate on all the mobs, especially as PLD. It's doable as WAR, but that's just a completely different discussion.
I thought you were saying how spamming Rage of Halone is somehow better than the combo for generating enmity - which MANY people would disagree with.

On King Mog, the 2 tanks typically hold 2-3 mobs (King, WAR mog, PLD Mog) while the DPS burn down the other DPS mogs. The tanks aren't expected to hold on to all 8 mobs.
Also, what helps with King Mog is making a macro that puts up number icons on each for the kill order. It's SUPER helpful, and anyone could look up how to do it.

Also, it sounds like you're talking about joining DF groups, which are notorious for not being polite, cooperative or patient. While that does represent SOME players, I sure hope it doesn't represent MOST players.

[Miitan]

You just don't get it, do you? You can't do the spike threat combo if the mob takes off after Fast Blade because you didn't maintain steady aggro on it. Go put on your item lv 55 AF set with a GC weapon and try to main tank a Duty Finder main story run. Tell me how it goes for you against all the i90 folks.

If you're fighting a boss, you start with 2 Shield Lobs and a Flash as you run by into position which gives you enough enmity to get through your first combo. If it's trash mobs, it's one Shield Toss and a few Flashes.

And if everyone else in your Main Scenario run is supposedly ilvl 90, then get the ilvl 90 tank to tank and pick up the adds he misses and you'll have enough tombs to gear yourself up to ilvl ~70 in no time.