How to make tanks more fun to play (devs please read)

[Grizzlebeard]

I'm not even going to get into the fact that there are more than twice as many dps as there are tanks. The implications of such should be (at least I hope) well within SE's means of grasping.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here but a mix of roughly 25% Tank / 25% Healer / 50% DD shouldn't be an issue with a 1 tank / 1 healer / 2 DD party combination.

Granted, I highly doubt those figures as we all know there's a tanking shortage. It could just be that the tanks are sitting in bars drinking away the memory of their last random DF experience.

[eagledorf]

And those tanks are just... bad. And hurt. Funny thing is, PLD is still a better tank by a slight margin....

Indeed, PLD has just as much potential to be crazy overpowered as they did pre 2.1. They gave WAR unreasonable buffs so that they're both about equally overpowered now (just different).

Anybody who thinks the WAR buffs gave PLD the middle finger has never done t2-4 through party finder where some people will only take Paladins. If I make a party finder myself for these turns and allow WAR, the tank slot(s) fill(s) almost instantly.

Simple way to look at the math for Halone is that combo Halone is as much hate as three not-combo Halone. That means that all the hate generated by Fast Blade and Savage Blade in your first two GCD are extra hate you did not get by spamming Halone.

[therpgfanatic]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here but a mix of roughly 25% Tank / 25% Healer / 50% DD shouldn't be an issue with a 1 tank / 1 healer / 2 DD party combination.

Granted, I highly doubt those figures as we all know there's a tanking shortage. It could just be that the tanks are sitting in bars drinking away the memory of their last random DF experience.

You need to read the other posts. That chart was made up by players a long time ago, and it doesn't reflect what people actually play as.

[therpgfanatic]

I'm no mathologist, but I'm pretty sure that with regards to the seafoam green parts of this chart:



It clearly states that comboed abilities generate much more hate per second. I don't have a degree in the arcane arts of mathologica, but I'm pretty sure that 750 times 3 is less than 3075, meaning maybe you should spend less time misreading charts and more time actually tanking where you would quickly find out that comboing your threat abilities makes it so you can actually hold threat, something you said you had a problem with.

You are looking at it as if no other characters will be generating threat with their own abilities. So what you are saying is 100% incorrect. The fact is you don't generate significant threat until the end of the combo. In the 6 seconds that it takes to reach the Halone part of the combo other characters have an opportunity to pull the mob off you.


Using the damage parameters of the chart,

Fast Blade + Savage Blade = 1,125

x2 Halone = 1,500

If you are trying to build and maintain threat, using a non-comboed Halone is superior than the spiky threat of the Halone combo.

Also, 10% STR reduction, whoopie freakin do. I don't have problems taking too much damage. At all. I rarely ever die because I use all my defensive cooldowns and step aside from AoE cones.

I have been playing this game exhaustively since starting. If I am telling you that when I do a Halone combo I lost threat in eight mans with high tier DPS and healers, but if I spam Halone I maintain threat then I mean exactly what I'm saying. It's not a problem with not understanding the class, it's a problem with the class design and how it wasn't accounting for the realities of play.

I already covered this in a follow up post but, keeping it brief, the OP cited 30 years of experience with MMOs when the genre didn't come about till '97 with Ultima Online. Yeah, you could play NWN online, it was an MO, not an MMO. In the same way text-based games, Multi-User Dungeons (MUDs) weren't MMOs. Yeah, it seems a minor consideration but when you're proposing radical class changes on the basis of a misleading statement then it becomes relevant.

As an aside, I used to raid in Everquest in the early days on dial up and can't even begin to fathom how I managed with a 30 minute disconnect. We used to prep for a raid and I'd often log back in surrounded by corpses because someone had accidentally aggroed the boss while I was frantically dialing up to get back online.

You have already been told that you are mistaken about MMORPGs being invented in the late 90s. Go read Dr. Richard Bartle's book, Designing Virtual Worlds and become educated on the actual history. You really need to drop this accusation because it's making you look foolish. MMORPGs are just a graphical MUD, and folks like Ralph Koster (lead design of Ultima Online) have repeatedly said this in interviews. Richard Garriot came up with the term MMORPG when marketing Ultima Online but it was by no means the first of its kind.

[XNihili]

You are looking at it as if no other characters will be generating threat with their own abilities. So what you are saying is 100% incorrect. The fact is you don't generate significant threat until the end of the combo. In the 6 seconds that it takes to reach the Rage part of the combo other characters have an opportunity to pull the mob off you.


Using the damage parameters of the chart,

Fast Blade + Savage Blade = 1,125

x2 Halone = 1,500

If you are trying to build and maintain threat, using a non-comboed Halone is superior than the spiky threat of the Halone combo.

So you are generating slightly more hate on the 2 first GCD then a truckload less after (825 from the previous page calculation) ...
Is it really the superior way ? Every 3 GCD you are losing that much threat potential.
Why don't you ask the other players to let you build hate first ?

[Avenol]

You wanna make tanks more fun to play...or at least a little more forgiving to play?

Introduce more threat generation and snap agro abilities. Remove the cooldown from provoke and have it cost 50 TP per use. Instead of just "current highest level hate +1" have it do "current highest level hate +1000"

[therpgfanatic]

So you are generating slightly more hate on the 2 first GCD then a truckload less after (825 from the previous page calculation) ...
Is it really the superior way ? Every 3 GCD you are losing that much threat potential.
Why don't you ask the other players to let you build hate first ?

Again, you are arguing for Spiky threat instead of consistent steady threat.

Spiky threat gives opportunities to lose aggro to DPS doing spiky damage, or healers doing spiky healing. OR those who have superior item tiers that consistently do way more damage to the point they generate more threat than the tank.


If all game solutions could be boiled down to simply asking players to do something then people wouldn't constantly be complaining about how "toxic" the community is. It's much more likely players will vote abandon so they can do a speed run than cater to the shortcomings of a tank geared below them.

Fact is threat in the game isn't perfect. Medica II having problems is another good example of this game having balance issues with tanks threat generation ability, http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ence_its_math/ . During Garuda hard it took dozens of tries until my party finally had a White Mage who didn't spam Medica II during the adds phase and cause a wipe.

Doesn't anyone else think it's silly that a White Mage was given a heal spell that nearly always pulls aggro off the tank?

[ZephyrK]

I already covered this in a follow up post but, keeping it brief, the OP cited 30 years of experience with MMOs when the genre didn't come about till '97 with Ultima Online. Yeah, you could play NWN online, it was an MO, not an MMO. In the same way text-based games, Multi-User Dungeons (MUDs) weren't MMOs. Yeah, it seems a minor consideration but when you're proposing radical class changes on the basis of a misleading statement then it becomes relevant.

As an aside, I used to raid in Everquest in the early days on dial up and can't even begin to fathom how I managed with a 30 minute disconnect. We used to prep for a raid and I'd often log back in surrounded by corpses because someone had accidentally aggroed the boss while I was frantically dialing up to get back online.

I've been playing MMOs for millions of years. Time is a flat circle.

[XNihili]

Again, you are arguing for Spiky threat instead of consistent steady threat.

Spiky threat gives opportunities to lose aggro to DPS doing spiky damage, or healers doing spiky healing.

We can't call this Spiky when it is not random. If you consider 3 GCD being a hate cycle, then the combo is a consistent, steady yet more efficient threat generation.
On the long run, which method is having generated the most hate ? Yours or this ?
This game threat management is kinda simple compared to FFXI for example. You can gain hate but never lose it even if you are slapped around like a wuss.
Even if you lose hate a few second at the Savage Blade using the combo way, the boosted comboed Rage of Halone is making you ahead of a Rage of Halone spam.
Asking for a few second to build hate works most of the time cauz no DPS want to tank/die.

[NeroMD]

Spiky threat gives opportunities to lose aggro to DPS doing spiky damage, or healers doing spiky healing. OR those who have superior item tiers that consistently do way more damage to the point they generate more threat than the tank.

How does spiky threat make you lose aggro to spiky Damage or healing? Knowing when the adds appear in fights is part of the tanks responsibility.
A Fight or Flight with a combo'd halone or savage blade will stick on you for a good amount of time to take control of the situation.

Managing Enmity doesn't only come from the tanks side, but everyone else aswell.
Fast Blade to Halone still remains superior in almost every aspect. Wether it's to spike hate or for the long end.

10% debuff from halone does make a difference, especially with a Warrior around to use Storms Path. That's permanant Rampart effect right there.