My friend the "content locust" :(

[Gamemako]

Most people don't know the difference between Vertical and Horizontal progression
- Vertical progression is based on gear level and player level.
- Horizontal progression is based on adding abilities, attributes and skill points to augment your abilities and character stats.

Specifically, you do not seem to understand the difference. Horizonal progression is not about adding abilities and skill points; that is vertical progression as well. Any absolute gain in power is vertical -- you are going up in power for every possible scenario. Going from ilvl70 fending to ilvl70 pentamelded accessories is vertical progression -- though the item level is the same, there's no reason to consider the Fending accessories for any scenario (ever). Horizontal progression is moving into situationally-useful or playstyle-specific equipment which is not necessarily better in every case than the alternative. The focus is generally on incomparables -- things which simply excel at different tasks. In a shooter like Mass Effect 3, this would be like a shotgun and a sniper rifle. Both do a lot of damage with a slow fire rate, but one is highly accurate at range but limited at close range while the other is a shield-breaking death machine up close and nigh-useless at long range. The two are not directly comparable because each offers an advantage in a situation where the other is limited.

[Akiza]

Specifically, you do not seem to understand the difference. Horizonal progression is not about adding abilities and skill points; that is vertical progression as well.

Horizontal Progression
Use a skill-based, horizontal progression system rather than a level-based, gear grind system. Give us a huge pool of options and gear to buy, but let players find their own right combination of skills and gear. Place an upper limit on the most powerful gear in the game, but provide lots of it—variety of abilities and gear and finding matching with different abilities should be the progression for players who play for epic achievement. A good example of this is The Secret World there are no levels and players complete content to gain new abilities and skill points to increase their characters attributes.

[Dhex]

@OP

You want a fix to the problem? Encourage developers to quit producing content that allows the player to be entirely apathetic towards it with no negative repercussions, and make participating in that content beneficial to character growth and progression. That seems to be what your friend deems "meaningful" in a game. That's their drive behind their personal entertainment.


Personal entertainment is a matter of taste; what one individual finds entertaining or engaging may not be entertaining or engaging to another. When it's optional/auxiliary; does it matter?


If you beat Super Mario Bros. by skipping over most of the worlds did you actually beat the game?

The fact is this thread is arguing against an individual's tastes from a basis in opinion.

Your "friend" has different tastes than you do and they obviously have a different opinion of what content is meaningful.

Some people love anchovies on pizza; and others think anchovies on pizza is repulsive.

Don't try to argue that your tastes and your pace of content consumption is applicable to everyone - and avoid talking as if your opinion is on some form of fanciful moral high-ground.

[Haruka-Akemi]

Well as i said the game is boring but we need to find stuff that makes the game less boring
I do titan with random people or level an alt character
Or simply go to the poor mans version of jeuno (mor dhona) and read the shouts
some of them are really fun.
We need to find other stuff besides rushing the new content and deaining its resources
Because lets be honest
The developers will not deliver content as fast as we want

[zdub303]

Well as i said the game is boring but we need to find stuff that makes the game less boring

This is the fundamental problem with the 'WoW' model of these games. If the player base has to try to find stuff to make the game less boring, then imo the game has failed at its core. People considering the game boring vs entertaining is one thing, that is all about personal taste, but when players have to log in and try to find something to do because they are locked out of any sort of meaningful content that is either due to a lack of content or a mismanagement of existing assets. I personally believe its the latter when it comes to FFXIV.

The developers will not deliver content as fast as we want

Like I was saying in the first quote, look back at the early days of EQ1. People had to grind hard for up to a year to reach max level, while this is a gross exaggeration of content delivery and it wouldn't fly in todays world of ADHD gamers they still managed their existing content in a way that it remained relevant for an extended period of time. The fundamental problem with FFXIV is that they have casualized all of their content to the point that many people don't bother to try/do it more than maybe once.

An example of this would be the King Mog encounter. I did that fight exactly once to finish the story content, and the fundamental design of the game gives me zero incentive to go back and replay that encounter. I have to 'try' to find my own meaning in replaying that encounter, instead of the devs balancing their content and how meaningful it is in light of the current endgame. Examples of this occur everywhere, and the worst issues is that 90% of the game (levelling your first class to 50 and spending time in the open world) is meant to be completed in several days for more active players to up to maybe 3-4 weeks for the more casual players.

Then this endgame focused MMO delivers a straight vertical progression (which is rather easy) right up to Binding Coil.. a dungeon completed relatively quickly, pugged often by a lot of the server right up until the only challenging fight in the game - Twintania.

This is why people say the game has no content. Because by its own nature it invalidates almost all of it, and its why people are calling for more horizontal progression.

I don't see the pace of development for this game changing any time soon, especially with the release of details on 2.2, invalidating all of the content in 2.0 and 2.1 and introducing a new tier of minimal content to replace the old one. Nothing changes, it just looks different and the stats have a few more numbers.

[Doo]

Yeah content that becomes obsolete quick is a huge issue in current mmos. That's why players will never be satisfied with the amount of content because you get them done in a week and it takes them 3 months to release so you end up having to "make your own fun" for a couple of months. Older mmos have rare items that you could possible farm for and different ways to progress your character to keep players entertained.

[Gamemako]

Older mmos have rare items that you could possible farm for and different ways to progress your character to keep players entertained.

That is to say, they had more grind. You'd gut the same monster 500000 times to get the 0.0002% drop out of it. You'd wait for the boss spawn (do nothing), kill it for the 500th time, and still get nothing again. FFXIV could do the same thing, but people already complain about running CT 20 times now when they'd do far more repetitive things in the past.

It's hard to make an MMO these days.

[Imapooonu]

Please allow me make this clear one more time. This is NOT a discussion about what is considered content and what is not. This is NOT a discussion in regards to game developer mistakes. This is NOT a discussion about whether or not someone is literally correct in their statements.

This IS a discussion about why a friend of mine who seemed to care less about gear progression and more about community suddenly changed perspective.

For those of you who refuse to read the entirety of a thread before posting, allow me to recap:

To top it off, my friend was always group oriented or “hive minded”. Sure he would say “sorry I’m busy” at times, but for the most part he was the rare gamer we can all appreciate who sacrifices his personal gain for the benefit of others.

Let me give you an example of some things he would say:

“I am not interested in a linkshell coil. It is something that should be done within an FC to promote relevance to said FC.”

“We need to start putting our personal FF goals aside in order to help FC members actualize theirs goals in game. If they progress, the FC progresses.”

“stuff like that”

After reading this, please refer to the original discussion I had with said friend in the original post.

I would advise the most recent participants in this thread to start getting back on topic. There are plenty of threads available to discuss the subject matter currently being injected into this thread. Use those.

Further off topic discussion will be flagged as such. Several comments a have already been removed in lieu of this consideration, yours will be next.

Thank you for understanding, poo

PS-Injecting personal opinions with the intent of validating a perspective is not considered off topic. Continuing a conversation in it’s entirety with no relevance to the subject matter is.

Thanks again.

[Clavaat]

-snip-

A consideration for you:

Let's take a moment and look at the situation from the producer's perspective. You are given a project that has failed. Your company is going bankrupt, and the idea is for you to not only fix a failed project with a reputation, but to have it produce a profit. The safest route would be to cater to as many people as possible.

The game is rated T. Players could be as young as 12-18. They all have school, so they cannot play too late, or too early. College players 18-22 have a more varied schedule, but in general do not have a lot of time. Typical working hours for any person beyond that is limited to about 5 hours a day, give or take a few. If you think about it, the average player does not have as much time to devote to MMO's. The producers needed to turn a profit, which they did, and they catered to the average player. I don't think it is an "ADHD gamer" thing so much as it truly is most people are completely unable to devote that much time on average.

My recommendation, if you truly feel like there isn't enough for you to do, is to take a break and come back in a year or two. This pace sets the bar similarly to FFXI, where content came out fairly regularly, but if you had started playing when it came out, you may run out of things to do on a day-to-day basis. Please don't read any of this post as being facetious, I just think it makes more sense in the grand scheme of things really