Constructive opinion on Paladin and Warrior

[Maku]

As a SCH I prefer healing WARs. Their constant healing plus from defiance makes me shields bigger and when I crit a single shield can eat almost all of a death sentence. On WHM I prefer PLDs because of their more constant damage mitigation I can let Regen do most of my healing for me.

Tanking wise, I am still not 50 PLD but I think I prefer being a WAR. Other than loving having a giant axe I simply can't stand that PLD "really" only has one rotation, and hearing RoH over and over and over gets really annoying, the BB rotation for WAR has less harsh sounds and isn't nearly as bad to listen to plus being able to throw in a SE or SP rotation changes things up a bit.

[WiseWolfHolo]

As a SCH I prefer healing WARs. Their constant healing plus from defiance makes me shields bigger and when I crit a single shield can eat almost all of a death sentence.

This is why my static group prefers a WAR to mt twin. War is just better at mitigating the possibility of the debuff because of their huge hp pool(ss from whm is more effective on War) and ofc the sch galvanize. With the debuffs on twin, inner beast and ss with gal, if the death sentence hits for 0, then the debuff cannot be applied.Also, with WAR having the defiance hp healing bonus, it allows healers the ability to cure through the infirmity as if it does not exist. Sure paladin can MT twin, but WAR just makes it easier. Paladin caught with low hp and debuff, prepare to die unless you have convalescence, or whm has devine seal or benediction, or sch has lustrates(if they don't, it becomes worthless). Again all hypothetical situations but WAR just seems to have the upperhand because of that 1 infirmity debuff. Besides paladin's 20% defense buff with shield oath means next to nothing with a war that knows when to inner beast.

[Duelle]

I came to learn that the current content does not favor a tank in general. There are of course opinions such as WAR is a better MT on Twintania 'cause of inner beast, PLD's do better in T4 'cause of hollowed ground etc.. These are all true, the abilities for the particular encounter does help. Is it mandatory? Oh hells no.. I detest the opinions put up by the community, so please know that either tank can tank everything just fine. It's often a matter of taste as well.

Emphasized the important bits.

I'd say play what you like, OP. Look at the mechanics of WAR and PLD and then give it a go at which you like most. I'm a sucker for straightforward design, so PLD was right up my alley (that it plays like a prot warrior from WoW, which was my main over there sort of helped...). Some feel better playing WAR. Really is a matter of taste.

[Abigs]

@Abigs
You obviously dont know how to play your warrior. Just because its 50 doesnt mean you know how to play it. Judging from your reply, I can tell you dont understand how different the tanking methods are between the two. Keep your posts constructive as the OP stated he doesnt want any fan boy stuff happening here, so take it elsewhere.

War takes more skill to play and master, which is why you will see a lot more bad war than bad pld. Paladin is easier to learn and play because their mitagtion abilities are a lot more forgiving if you time them wrong or too soon, also War is more gear intensive because their mitigation comes from their gear where a PLD mitigation is based on incoming damage. But that is by no means saying one is better than the other. Both are on equal grounds hands down. Play with what you feel more comfortable and enjoy more. At this point it is personal preference and both have Good and annoying things about the class.

nope

warrior OT is good because of debuff for bosses however warrior OT cannot out dps a pally OT since warriors will lose a lot of health if they take off defiance (turning on defiance only increases your max hp but doesnt heal it)
pally OT has access to stoneskin which helps tons especially on spike damage situations (mountain buster, flame breaths (from 2 going to 3) etc. on a lesser note, pally OT has access to cover aswell i know its very situational but its still something to toss in there

wipes happen more often due to spiky situations rather than throughput since healing in this game is pretty strong with basic heals at i90 land for 1k+ hp.. and a pally MT can also predictively stoneskin himself on burst situations just like how warriors use inner beast (do take note that if a warrior goes for debuffs, his aggro doesnt benefit from BB while a pally only has halone for both his aggro and debuff)

warrior OT can be good if your composition has drg and bard for the pierce buff
also do remember that a warriors debuff storm path only affects 1 target (or the target it is applied on).. so ambient damage from anything else will not get reduced by 10% while a paladin will always constantly mitigate damage from all sources

i am not fanboying since my main was a warrior, but ive seen the difference of the 2 classes.. pally is better for progression and progression has always been more important than farm content

[Warrlordd]

Abigs you fail to realize some very important things.

First of all a good WAR will mitigate more spike damage than a paladin. Such is the nature of well used Inner Beast.
Second WAR's debuffs will mitigate magical damage, something a paladin cannot do. A WAR's self healing (though not as crazy as 2.0) can also help mitigate magic damage by restoring HP, something a Paladin can only do very minorly (cure, bloodbath).
Third A WAR can arrange his CD's so that he can very consistently be have damage reduction up. In fights like Ultima or Twintania where the MT takes a beating the whole fight through, this is very very helpful. A PLD must rely on the rng of his block/parry/dodge.
Fourth you are wrong about PLD's doing more DPS, and you should take off defiance when you are not actively tanking, unless it's T2 where swaps happen frequently.
Fifth as for your comment about the BB, you can work in BB around your debuff combos, but as people have said before, it takes skill to WAR properly.
Sixth as for progression my FC has a group (1 PLD, 1 WAR) and they started progression on and cleared T4 in one night and made it to divebombs on T5 the next.

You are wrong, sir.

[Truefaith87]

Personal feelings? I like warrior better at this point. Given my pld is only 40 still, but warrior just... Looks and feels more like something i would enjoy. They have a wee bit more of the feral side of actions, animation wise, that i like. As far as all the other discussions go with this thread, i will leave them to butt heads, i play DPS mainly so i haven't really sit down and crunched numbers, plus only exp as warrior up to T2. Looks wise though, you cant go wrong with warrior. I mean you're swinging around a giant axe. A GIANT AXE, PEOPLE!

[Abigs]

Abigs you fail to realize some very important things.

First of all a good WAR will mitigate more spike damage than a paladin. Such is the nature of well used Inner Beast.
Second WAR's debuffs will mitigate magical damage, something a paladin cannot do. A WAR's self healing (though not as crazy as 2.0) can also help mitigate magic damage by restoring HP, something a Paladin can only do very minorly (cure, bloodbath).
Third A WAR can arrange his CD's so that he can very consistently be have damage reduction up. In fights like Ultima or Twintania where the MT takes a beating the whole fight through, this is very very helpful. A PLD must rely on the rng of his block/parry/dodge.
Fourth you are wrong about PLD's doing more DPS, and you should take off defiance when you are not actively tanking, unless it's T2 where swaps happen frequently.
Fifth as for your comment about the BB, you can work in BB around your debuff combos, but as people have said before, it takes skill to WAR properly.
Sixth as for progression my FC has a group (1 PLD, 1 WAR) and they started progression on and cleared T4 in one night and made it to divebombs on T5 the next.

You are wrong, sir.

1) pallies have rampart, foresight (except for the cd timer), a better convalescence, sentinel (40% vs 30% from vengeance differs in duration tho), and hollowed ground.. for every 8 gcds that innerbeast needs, pallies can make it up with clearly superior self buffs. Thrill of battle is really really good especially if synergized with shielding (ss, galvanize), and featherfoot evasion (ok but makes you spiky when taking hits). holmgang is really close to garbage and is only really good if you have a WHM synergized with a timed benediction after the 5 second effect

looking at everything as a whole, pally mitigation cooldowns are overall better than what a warrior has.. if IB was off the gcd, then yes probably it would be easier to mitigate spiky damage as a warrior.. but currently, you'll have to have 'dead periods' to wait it out just to time IB properly or you get hit by a truck

2) wars debuffs will only mitigate 10% damage constantly, while a pally has 20% damage mitigation passively.. wars cannot have IB up all the time.. 8 gcds is about 20 seconds (you can opt to use berserk for the last wrath stack at times). war self healing from IB is marginal.. about 500 tops? second wind heals for almost the same.. both wars and pally have access to bloodbath (where pally shield oath is -20% damage and wars having -25% damage). besides, with i80+ healers you're more often overhealed anyway

3) pallies have as much 'long' cds than what war does and looking at it at a mitigation perspective, pallies have it better. (sorry if im repeating my answer to #1)
pally: rampart (mitigation), foresight (mitigation), sentinel (mitigation), convalescence (healer buff), hallowed ground (mitigation), awareness (mitigation), bulwark (mitigation), tempered will (situational)
wars: foresight (mitigation), convalescence (healer buff), thrill of battle (eHP), vengeance (mitigation), holmgang (situational), featherfoot (eHP), second wind (eHP), awareness (mitigation)

4) if you take defiance off, you lose that health and you lose all your stacks, you cannot just turn it back on and pop IB once the boss does his skills.. you'll need 8 gcds to ramp up your wrath stacks once again.. a war w/o defiance gets rid of 25% damage debuff while a pally switching to sword oath gets rid of 20% damage debuff and gains 10% more damage from autos since theres no penalty to life or losing stacks what-so-ever


5) SP is 30 sec debuff (correct me if im wrong) while an SE is a 15 second debuff.. a warrior combo regardless of ender consumes 3 gcds or 7.5 seconds.. to constantly apply SE you'll need to devote 1 combo every other to SE and you'll need to devote 1 combo every 4 to SP leaving you only 1 BB combo every 4 combos.. simply not enough threat generated for 1 BB combo every 30 secs one of those 2 will have to give. Pally only has halone for debuff, aggro, damage.. no need to plan or budget your gcds there just halone allt he way.
No matter how skilled you are, theres just no way to constantly apply both debuffs, plan for your IB, and still manage to have enough aggro with BB.. you'll have to budget it all around (yes this makes warriors fun to play but at optimal levels this is a clear limitation to the parameters of what a warrior can do)

6) it's been said time and time again that both tanks are overtuned for the content where they both can clear the game.. but we're talking about comparing the differences of 2 tanking classes objectively

[Riyos]

Also, Tank stance or not, WAR does not surpass PLD by an extreme degree in dps, with i88 on both jobs and equal gear/stats, I am doing about 20-30 dps difference at most (DPS sets and tank sets), WAR being on top by a small margin in hours of testing.

Have you tried with maim, se, berserk and unchained? Because when i'm playing with the pld from my static(both full 90) i'm doing much more dps than him

[Abigs]

best way to deal the most damage with war (dps) is alternate SE (maim),BB combo while brutal on every off gcd that it is up. you have berserk and should be out of defiance (since wrath stacks+unchained cannot compensate for the 25% dmg debuff)
berserk is your cd for burst

pally should be in sword oath and spam halone combo.. spirits / scorn on every off gcd its up.. spirits will be optimal as OT since its the damage it does scales with your current hitpoints.
fight or flight is your cd for burst

w/o defiance wars will beat pally.. with defiance pally would pull forward.. pally in shield oath wont beat warriors in dps

it depends just really depends on warriors willing to take the penalties/or lack of incentives when taking off defiance.. for twintania p2 this is ok, but for ex primals i dont think its a good idea

[Gangaloo]

Basically, WAR is the king of burst damage tanking while PLD is the kind of tanking constant high damage.

I'd have to strongly disagree with this considering in my group's last TT kill I had to call for Virus twice? I'd hardly consider that a big deal. Not to mention that a PLD can stoneskin themselves right before a DS lands. Once a PLD starts pushing towards 600 parry rate with food I've noticed that DS becomes quite negligible as long as a Virus lands for when a major CD isn't up (as I said for myself last kill that was only 2). There's been quite a few times I've taken 0 damage on my PLD from a DS because I blocked the in coming damage with a CD up.

If you rotate your CDs properly on a PLD you really don't have very many cases where you don't have something up to mitigate DS. Also keep in mind that burst damage prevention includes the plummet that comes before DS, which will not always allow IB up for the DS right after as the cast time could let IB drop off. PLD can mitigate BOTH of those attacks a lot better trivializing the in coming burst damage.

Most single tank TT groups use a PLD tank for a reason. While PLD is a lot more forgiving against TT than WAR is in terms of CD usage, an inexperienced PLD is very noticeable. They won't have their CDs up for quite a few DS because they don't know how to rotate them properly. You'd be surprised how much more often a PLD will have his CDs up if he say... hits times a Rampart so it eats both the DS and the Plummet, and has 2 seconds before it drops off right as DS hits him. I see a LOT of PLD new to TT hit their CDs when they see the cast bar start, which is NOT how you're supposed to mitigate the damage (even though it does work).