Skill based fights..

[Estellios]

Way too much content in early FF11 was "Fail stun and you lose" or "Kite or you get 1-shotted".

Ironically enough it wasn't until after Abyssea that fights started to get interesting with Auras, interesting enemy counters, and other mechanics that they were able to put in place when they decided to be a bit more ambitious with what the engine could do.

[Doo]

A couple of points here.. Not a personal attack just a couple of things that highly annoy me.

First yes he can complain all he wants.

Second farming T5 is about having a consistent static, not individual skill.

So true. Many players aren't beating these "tough" fights because they can't. Most of these leet guys all watch MrHappy videos and play a lot anyways. There's only a handful that actually do the work.

[TrystWildkey]

Hate to burst your bubble but the same arguement can be used for those. Each fight had a "gimmick", "order", or "strat" attached to it. The fights were kited, tank/spank, "burn", or range only. FF11 is not the holy grail of skill-based fights as people clouded by nostalgia think it to be.


Aside:
This will sound elitest, but if people aren't capable of clearing EX primals/T5 easily each and every week (farm mode) then they can't really complain too much as they are part of the issue mechanics don't get more complicated. I.E. if a larger percentage had T5 clears it might raise alarms at SE that content is beyond too easy. Thus we can't really blame the dev team for the majority of the community just being... bad, thus catering to them.

I think people aren't mentioning XI so much out of a sense of nostalgia, but as an easy/familiar game to compare and contrast with. They're not saying it was the best thing ever, just providing a contrasting example.

Also, your aside doesn't sound so much eliteist as it sounds dismissive of people who don't play games the same way that you do.

This is probably going to be long, but please, hang in there with me.

I wasn't good at playing Mario, Sonic, MegaMan, Street Fighter, or any of the other games that required great motor skills and pattern memorization. However, when I discovered turn-based RPG's, holy crap was I happy! Finally, something I could play for more than just the first few easy levels. Something that made me think, and challenged me to figure out strategies. RPG's also gave me a story, how fantastic is that! So, I happily started playing RPG's instead of the action games everyone else was playing.

Jump ahead in time, and Halo happens. Friends of mine had LAN parties where we played Halo. I went, more to socialize than play the game since I SUCKED at it, but hey, fun with friends is fun with friends.

Then, a different friend introduced me to a different game, FFXI. This was fun AND strategy with friends. This was something that involved thinking and some basic motor skills. Nothing that was out of my reach, it just might take me a bit longer. Then I found out that there are OTHER MMORPGS, holy freaking crap! I tried out a couple, but didn't like them all that much and stuck with XI. Then XIV came out, it had some slowness issues, but the core game mechanics I enjoyed. Then 1.23 and OH MY HOLY GOD this is so good!! Ok, same dev team that gave us 1.23 is going to give us a revamped game, great!

Then I got slapped in the face and shoved back to the days where I couldn't get past the water stage in Mario.

It's disappointing. I play RPG's because their pace and depth really appeal to me and I suck at action games. Now, it seems as if all RPG's are turning into action games. Forgive me if I'm not very pleased with that.

Sincere question: Are all MMORPG's more action oriented than strategy? Are there any with a slightly slower pace to combat that might appeal to me? (please don't tell me to go back to XI, it's doing the vertical progression, item level crap now too and I don't like that)

[Zumi]

I have a theory people who owned a original NES and played like Mario, Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden, the first Ninja Turtles or any of other classic NES games are much better at FFXIV then people who have never played a NES. Why because old school NES games required a lot of memorization and quick reaction to stuff to beat the game.

They wanted to put in more things in FFXIV that require quick reflexes and pattern memorization to make the game harder. If you only played turn based rpgs and never played a platformer or action game then you won't do as well. Even playing a competitive FPS that requires twitch actions to win those people will do better as well.

[TrystWildkey]

I have a theory people who owned a original NES and played like Mario, Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden, the first Ninja Turtles or any of other classic NES games are much better at FFXIV then people who have never played a NES. Why because old school NES games required a lot of memorization and quick reaction to stuff to beat the game.

They wanted to put in more things in FFXIV that require quick reflexes and pattern memorization to make the game harder. If you only played turn based rpgs and never played a platformer or action game then you won't do as well. Even playing a competitive FPS that requires twitch actions to win those people will do better as well.

That's not a theory, that's proven fact!

I just wonder why they went that direction instead of continuing with the 1.23 system.

EDIT: I wouldn't be so close to quitting the game if they hadn't also made crafting completely useless. If I could still craft solid, usable gear for my husband and friends, I'd be happy to stay with ARR.

[Doo]

They wanted to put in more things in FFXIV that require quick reflexes and pattern memorization to make the game harder. If you only played turn based rpgs and never played a platformer or action game then you won't do as well. Even playing a competitive FPS that requires twitch actions to win those people will do better as well.

I just look at FFXIV more as checkers while FFXI is more like chess.

[Yashnaheen]

Good points Tryst.

I really think the differences in the playerbase here isn't so much one is right and one is wrong, or that there is no counter argument to a type of playstyle. It's that there are 2 general types who play MMORPGs.

1. Those who love RPGs. The progression, story, lore, struggles and glory. The MMO part includes others which (depending on the company you keep) make it even better. Modern offerings tend to destroy your progression or reason to progress in general. These types will probably enjoy an evening with a few others and a tabletop RPG.

2. Those who enjoy the game time and consistency an MMO offers, and the social aspect. Not so much the RPG part. I don't understand this group as well so I won't try to go in to detail I don't understand well. But they would enjoy twitch games more than an RPG, like in Zumi's example- classic arcade style side scrollers.

FFXIV: ARR happens to be a Type 2 game, even though the franchise's previous 12 games were Type 1.

[Mardel]

Doesn't burst my bubble, I just find them more fun then rotation/phases memorization where one person messes up it's most likely a wipe.

Well, let's be frank. In FF11 the game was all about memorizing as well. Heck any boss is when it comes down to it. DM you had a kill order. Sky gods had attack rotations and 2hrs. Nyzul isle had specific room types. Jailers had specific tactics per jailer. Salvage you had to know who to unlock skills/stats for first and the path of gear to take. Now I liked FF11 for what it was, and I want a variety of fights and bosses to take down in dungeons, and open world as well! So Not trying really hate.

A couple of points here.. Not a personal attack just a couple of things that highly annoy me.

First yes he can complain all he wants. Valid points are valid points.

Second farming T5 is about having a consistent static, not individual skill.

And lastly we already had a far higher % of players beating T5 before 2.1 than Yoshi estimated. There were more than 100 on my server that cleared T5 before 2.1, let alone the entire game. The response was to make everything easier. Yay.

What valid points? What I quoted was strictly opinion from him. Even my response alone is an opinion that so happens to be "valid points" against his "valid points." (Not trying to be a troll just have to point that out because something being valid is based on fact or sound reason.)

I didn't saying a person wouldn't be able to complain. "Can't really complain" is a idiom. So when I said it I was conveying that people complaining about skill based fights when they cannot do current "skill based fights" from lack of the said skill is in a sense ironic. Would be like getting a new computer built to run the highest taxing game out on the market, but you only ever play psx emulated games on it. For T5 comment sure, "more people cleared than he estimated" but just think of the majority that didn't. We are a drop in the bucket compared to the masses so I can see why the content was made easier for them to move on as we clear the new "hard" content. Thus further showing what I said to have some reason behind it, "majority is bad and will be catered to."

Also, at the individual skill comment. Individual skill in current MMO(s) only ever takes you so far anyways. To be able to bring together a team that can learn to work together, is a skill in it's own right. Learning to play with people you group with is just part of an MMO. Just as people who work on the development teams are in small teams of their own!

Now I will say that this game doesn't take much skill and I would like it to be more skill based. However due to the scope of game play design the odds of of seeing significant change without survey(s), data, and petitions is next to none.

Good points Tryst.

I really think the differences in the playerbase here isn't so much one is right and one is wrong, or that there is no counter argument to a type of playstyle. It's that there are 2 general types who play MMORPGs.

1. Those who love RPGs. The progression, story, lore, struggles and glory. The MMO part includes others which (depending on the company you keep) make it even better. Modern offerings tend to destroy your progression or reason to progress in general. These types will probably enjoy an evening with a few others and a tabletop RPG.

2. Those who enjoy the game time and consistency an MMO offers, and the social aspect. Not so much the RPG part. I don't understand this group as well so I won't try to go in to detail I don't understand well. But they would enjoy twitch games more than an RPG, like in Zumi's example- classic arcade style side scrollers.

FFXIV: ARR happens to be a Type 2 game, even though the franchise's previous 12 games were Type 1.

This I agree with completely, well said. I wish this post could be a sticky'd.

[Doo]

Well, let's be frank. In FF11 the game was all about memorizing as well. Heck any boss is when it comes down to it.

It does but in FFXI you can go into most fights blind and win while ffxiv you and I know the majority of players have to watch Mr Happy videos to succeed.



edit: If it was a single player game, I wouldn't mind FFXIVs style as much since I don't think they are that difficult. But when you make me rely on 7 others to do their role perfectly, it makes me hate it.

[Richiealvian]

So, from these posts.. I'd assume.. that what people don't like is the entire system itself? I mean from the game's perspective, they've done all they can with the fights.. right? Except the random part. Well, conflagrations' target is kind of random.. Landslide's target is random.. Who gets gaoled is random.. And um, Chimera's rotations are random? Blue eyes, Violet eyes? I found that interesting. But just like with each and every fight there is in every game out there.. All fights are just the same with reskinned images, aren't they?

I personally quite like what XIV has to offer. They've been quite creative, but of course your first victory's the charm. Any wins after that would have lost it's OH YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH moment..

Edit:@above..

When I go into new fights, I expect to lose. If I can win it within my first try, that's such a phail boss battle.. Remember playing Kingdom Hearts(if you did) and beating Sephiroth? I went from not being able to dent him at level 99 to able to beat him with a level 50 character.. And I still think it's a very badass battle. I didn't watch any videos beating the EX primals at all, took me about 30 hours to finally win Titan (cumulated, played 3 days 10 hours each) and now I kind of find the fight very relaxing. But these all satisfy me.

What doesn't satisfy you guys? Is it because of the internet age, you can't help but spoil yourself on how people beat it and then went and watched videos?

For me, the charm is losing, and not knowing where I did wrong, then ask others or try figuring that out myself until I can defeat the boss.