Warrior Tanks: Maximizing DPS Output

[BushidoMP]

I guess we have a different idea on what is best for each boss fight and a different line of thinking... *snip* ... If that thing happens, which gear set will give me the absolute best chance of fixing the problem for my party?

Yeah... that's essentially my logic I suppose. In an ideal scenario (i.e. my static) where the overall chance of success is high, why would I not go all out DPS if I can? But, again, don't say I'm all out sacrificing survivability. I'm arguing that in most scenarios the all DPS build has enough survivability to be viable, so the extra tanking stats aren't necessary. There's a difference between the two.

If I did 10000 attempts in i90 VIT, 10000 attempts in i90 STR, and 10000 attempts in i70 pentameld. Which would yield the highest win percentage?

Where do you come up with this stuff? There's so many variables involved here it's not even funny. Moot point, in fact, there's not even a point there that's how invalid that question is.

I do a ton of EX Primals. My FC sells EX Primal carries (7-man) for gil. I help out my less-experienced friends with their weekly clears. I join PF groups to help out friends. These are all sub-optimal conditions, as opposed to 8 fully geared and experienced veterans. I want to completely minimize wipes with customers. I want to give myself the best possible chance of carrying weaker parties.

I've had situations where the other tank accidentally died in EX Titan and I had to tank 4-5 stacks of Mountain Buster. I'm not sure if I'd be able to do that in i90 STR gear and 30 STR attributes. I've had situations where too much DPS died and we won by the skin of our teeth, and there was no room to compromise my damage output. I feel that i70 pentameld is perfect for this fight. While damage is the bottleneck in this fight, I still think there's a line where VIT into STR sacrifices are no longer worth it. Going from i70 Pentameld to i90 STR is a loss of 50 VIT and 60 Parry to gain 20 STR, and I don't think it's worth it. You might feel differently about this fight (and many other fights), and that's fine. Neither of us are necessarily right or wrong.

This goes back to the question of the point of this thread. Maximizing warrior DPS or maximizing survivability while still being able to do some damage. If you're that worried about surviving in those situations, then you don't really wanna maximize your damage. However, I certainly entertain the idea of balance, and if you would see my reply above to Rexus I posted an i90 hybrid build that would have a similar effect.

Anyway, to answer your question: Yes, I have i90 STR Accessories. My alt is a full i90 Monk. I've tried it vs Titan but not Ifrit.

My i70 Pentameld vs My i90 Strength Accessories:

-50 Vitality
-60 Parry
-19 Accuracy
-2 Determination
-2 Skill Speed

+20 Strength
+11 Crit

That's fine.. but please post your actual gear sets and stats please lol. Those numbers don't mean much without a point of reference. Also..that wasn't my question, your alt is irrelevant; I wanted to know if you've used full i90 dps/str accessories on your warrior.

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Also, I still feel that you keep trying to prove to me the advantages of your i70 pentamelds, but without providing any numerical evidence. Obviously we each have our own opinions which is necessary to produce a debate... but I'd like to be able to compare raw numbers to actually produce a meaningful discussion/comparison that isn't based on opinion or the "just feels right" principle.

[bokchoykn]

Yeah... that's essentially my logic I suppose. In an ideal scenario (i.e. my static) where the overall chance of success is high, why would I not go all out DPS if I can? But, again, don't say I'm all out sacrificing survivability. I'm arguing that in most scenarios the all DPS build has enough survivability to be viable, so the extra tanking stats aren't necessary. There's a difference between the two.

This is our main disconnect. If we're talking about best-in-slot for ideal scenario's only, we're splitting hairs here. Your definition of best-in-slot is vastly different than mine. Therefore, arguing over what is best-in-slot becomes pointless.

Where do you come up with this stuff? There's so many variables involved here it's not even funny. Moot point, in fact, there's not even a point there that's how invalid that question is.

The point is that my definition of best-in-slot deals with probability of success vs failure. Not what can kill the boss quickest while still being able to live. Of course, there are so many variables there such as the quality of the players you're playing with. My aim is to maximize the chances of success and minimize the chances of failure, even taking into account variables such as player error and the quality (or lack thereof) of my teammates. Yours is to killing as quickly as possible under ideal scenarios only, where your HP sacrifice is much less likely to be exposed.

This goes back to the question of the point of this thread. Maximizing warrior DPS or maximizing survivability while still being able to do some damage. If you're that worried about surviving in those situations, then you don't really wanna maximize your damage. However, I certainly entertain the idea of balance, and if you would see my reply above to Rexus I posted an i90 hybrid build that would have a similar effect.

You're taking the point of the thread out of context. This could be because of my misleading title. It could be because you didn't read the OP. Who knows. We've actually been off topic for a few pages now. The point of the topic is that DPS output should be a priority. Not the #1 priority, but at least somewhere on the Warrior priority list.

That's fine.. but please post your actual gear sets and stats please lol. Those numbers don't mean much without a point of reference. Also..that wasn't my question, your alt is irrelevant; I wanted to know if you've used full i90 dps/str accessories on your warrior.

I could, but what's the point, really? Again, our idea of "best-in-slot" are so wildly different. We'll end up talking about why OUR preferred set is better for OUR respective motives.

Also, I still feel that you keep trying to prove to me the advantages of your i70 pentamelds, but without providing any numerical evidence. Obviously we each have our own opinions which is necessary to produce a debate... but I'd like to be able to compare raw numbers to actually produce a meaningful discussion/comparison that isn't based on opinion or the "just feels right" principle.

The advantages are clear. i70 pentamelds provide the most stats, but at a cost: the stats are spread out between survivability and damage instead of being concentrated into one.

The issue is that the ariyala.com gear calculator doesn't have i70 gear there.

[BushidoMP]

This is our main disconnect. If we're talking about best-in-slot for ideal scenario's only, we're splitting hairs here. Your definition of best-in-slot is vastly different than mine. Therefore, arguing over what is best-in-slot becomes pointless.

I'm not talking about ideal scenario's only, I do PUG EX Primals in this gear and still survive just fine. An ideal scenario.. is an ideal scenario, but I survive just fine with randoms.

The point is that my definition of best-in-slot deals with probability of success vs failure. Not what can kill the boss quickest while still being able to live. Of course, there are so many variables there such as the quality of the players you're playing with. My aim is to maximize the chances of success and minimize the chances of failure, even taking into account variables such as player error and the quality (or lack thereof) of my teammates. Yours is to killing as quickly as possible under ideal scenarios only, where your HP sacrifice is much less likely to be exposed.

Not only do you not understand the point itself, but now you're misconstruing what I mean to convey. There is NO WAY to predict which scenario will have the greatest outcome of success solely based on your tanks gear set. That's horrible logic, that's lack of logic. A flawed thought process.

You're taking the point of the thread out of context. This could be because of my misleading title. It could be because you didn't read the OP. Who knows. We've actually been off topic for a few pages now. The point of the topic is that DPS output should be a priority. Not the #1 priority, but at least somewhere on the Warrior priority list.

Dude... what IS the point of this thread then if we're off topic? Is the topic of the thread that your way is the only right way to play tank and that anyone else that tries to contribute to the discussion will be met with a wall of refute and denial that eventually revolves around the central theme that you're right and everyone else is wrong? Dear lord.

Don't post a warrior DPS thread if you don't want to actually discuss warrior DPS and instead would rather talk about tank survivability. Furthermore, that last sentence almost entirely negates anything that can be said about warrior damage. There's only so many things a warrior CAN prioritize, if it's prioritized last then it doesn't matter. Thread over.

I could, but what's the point, really? Again, our idea of "best-in-slot" are so wildly different. We'll end up talking about why OUR preferred set is better for OUR respective motives.

Discussions are spawned by opinions and perpetuated by facts, evidence, and more opinion. Allow me to ask again, do you actually want to entertain outside input here, or do you just want to try and tell the world the i70 pentamelds are the end-all be-all of accessories and end the thread here?

The advantages are clear. i70 pentamelds provide the most stats, but at a cost: the stats are spread out between survivability and damage instead of being concentrated into one.

The issue is that the ariyala.com gear calculator doesn't have i70 gear there.

The advantages are most certainly NOT clear. You haven't provided any real numbers for us to make a meaningful comparison between gearsets. The only thing you've provided is your blind opinion based upon some random amount of experience.

Also, if you'd actually make some effort to meaningful conversation here as I've attempted to do, you would see that ariyala.com most certainly has i70 crafted gear as well as 5 materia meld slots to custom select your materia. The creator of the website plays on my server. I just saw her walk by me in Limsa, do you need me to ask her to personally confirm to you that you can indeed create your gearset there?

Please post some data for others. I'm trying to go beyond a personal debate here and actually flesh this out so that other people can benefit.

[bokchoykn]

Not only do you not understand the point itself, but now you're misconstruing what I mean to convey. There is NO WAY to predict which scenario will have the greatest outcome of success solely based on your tanks gear set. That's horrible logic, that's lack of logic. A flawed thought process.

You're right. It's impossible to say with confidence that Tank set ABC yields the highest win% for encounter XYZ. I'm not trying to find this ultimate gear combination nor am I trying to say that the gear set I use is absolutely certainly the best. That's not what I'm trying to say at all.

All I was trying to convey was this: Before we can even begin arguing what gear set is "best-in-slot" for a given encounter, we must first agree on what it means to be "best-in-slot". My concept for "best-in-slot" is the gear set that maximizes your chances at success by increasing margins of error for the rest of your party. Your concept for "best-in-slot" is the gear set that maximizes your damage while still being able to survive.

You're correct that my idea is not measurable and it's absolutely impossible to ascertain which gear set is best at maximizing your chances at success. Any attempt at creating a "best-in-slot" for this scenario is going to be completely based on hypothesis. However, the ideology is still there and I was just trying to show you that "best-in-slot" has a different meaning to you than it does to me. I think you took this idea too far.

Dude... what IS the point of this thread then if we're off topic? Is the topic of the thread that your way is the only right way to play tank and that anyone else that tries to contribute to the discussion will be met with a wall of refute and denial that eventually revolves around the central theme that you're right and everyone else is wrong? Dear lord.

At no point did I say that my way is the only right way and that it is better than yours. I have my preferred gear set for each scenario, you have yours, and I respect that. If I come off that way, I apologize, but you've been just as adamant about your opinions (if not more) than I've been about mine, so I don't know how you can try to paint me as some guy who's trying to shove his undisputable gear preferences down everyone's throats. I don't know why you're saying this and it is insulting.

Don't post a warrior DPS thread if you don't want to actually discuss warrior DPS and instead would rather talk about tank survivability. Furthermore, that last sentence almost entirely negates anything that can be said about warrior damage. There's only so many things a warrior CAN prioritize, if it's prioritized last then it doesn't matter. Thread over.

I feel that my post was constructive, helpful, and well received. You took the title too literally (again, bad choice of title on my fault too) and expected for it to share your "Damage-first" philosophy of tanking, which I personally don't agree with.

Anyway, at multiple points in the OP and the thread, I stated that DPS should be increased without incurring a major compromise to your other roles (including survivability). What might be considered a "major compromise" to me might be considered not a compromise at all to you. Which is fine. We have differing opinions on this matter. I wouldn't sacrifice 80 VIT, 60 Parry, 45 DEX for 50 STR in fight vs Titan EX.

The purpose of this thread was to bring damage output to the attention of tanks. It should be something that tanks should seriously consider, because most don't. The majority of tanks out there think it's okay to deal 80 DPS to Titan EX, because DPS is not their job. If they fail to beat the enrage timer, only the DPS is at fault.

You and I obviously agree that damage is important. We just disagree on the methodology and extent to which tanks should increase their damage. Again, that's fine. I respect that.

Discussions are spawned by opinions and perpetuated by facts, evidence, and more opinion. Allow me to ask again, do you actually want to entertain outside input here, or do you just want to try and tell the world the i70 pentamelds are the end-all be-all of accessories and end the thread here?

The advantages are most certainly NOT clear. You haven't provided any real numbers for us to make a meaningful comparison between gearsets. The only thing you've provided is your blind opinion based upon some random amount of experience.

Also, if you'd actually make some effort to meaningful conversation here as I've attempted to do, you would see that ariyala.com most certainly has i70 crafted gear as well as 5 materia meld slots to custom select your materia. The creator of the website plays on my server. I just saw her walk by me in Limsa, do you need me to ask her to personally confirm to you that you can indeed create your gearset there?

Please post some data for others. I'm trying to go beyond a personal debate here and actually flesh this out so that other people can benefit.

First of all, I didn't know this website was updated. It's been a little while since I used it. My bad.

I will post my numbers eventually but I don't see the point. Your goal when it comes to itemization is wildly different than mine. You emphasize damage more than I do and I emphasize a varied hybrid of survivability and damage (and you feel that this is wrong because of the topic I chose for this thread). For that reason, any conclusions we can draw from my stats won't solve anything because our goals have been different from the very beginning.

For what it's worth, the reason I consider i70 pentamelded accessories as my default tanking set is because it gives an absurd amount of stats. 9 STR + 10 VIT vs 15 VIT vs 13 STR. The secondary stats are very heavily in favor of the i70s. From there, I decide if losing 9 STR is worth 5 VIT or if losing 10 VIT + 12 Parry + 9 DEX is worth 4 STR.

Choosing to go for full damage or full HP is simply a matter of determining what is the primary risk of failure in the fight, how I can increase mt party's margins of error, and then deciding accordingly. That's how I do it. My methods my be abstract and not concrete, but that's not to say that it's devoid of logic. If you like to do it a different way, I respect that and I won't try to persuade you.