Warrior Tanks: Maximizing DPS Output

[Kitru]

Just wanting some advice on best combo when your not main tanking?

SP>SE is the off-tanking rotation: you want to maintain both debuffs for the other tank and it only does slightly less damage than SE>BB. I honestly wouldn't say that Fracture is worth it because it's such a laughably marginal increase to total DPS over time; no one is likely to notice the difference between using it and not. SE>BB>BB generates too much enmity and is likely to rip enmity from another tank if you're not careful, not to mention that it doesn't provide the super important 10% damage debuff from SP.

If you're asking what to use when you're just putzing around while solo, SE>BB is best; it's the highest damage rotation for WARs.

[bokchoykn]

SE>BB>BB generates too much enmity and is likely to rip enmity from another tank if you're not careful.

SE>BB>BB out of Defiance won't compare to Halone>Halone>Halone in Shield Oath. Especially if there are Fractures mixed in.

Using Fracture, compared to the average combo attack, is an extra 100 Potency. It is also more efficient Potency per TP. Using it 6-7 times in a fight is like having an extra full combo worth of damage. Even if you're really selective on when you use Fracture and only use it when you have Maim, Berserk and Storm's Eye up and outside of Defiance (or Unchained) it's still significant. "Laughably marginal" is an exaggeration.

[Kitru]

SE>BB>BB out of Defiance won't compare to Halone>Halone>Halone in Shield Oath. Especially if there are Fractures mixed in.

You're operating under the assumption that whoever you're tanking with isn't a complete idiot and/or undergeared. I've ripped aggro off of my co-tank in HM Ultima Weapon using only SE>SP and that's got no enmity modifier whatsoever.

The salient point is that, even if you're not in Defiance, you shouldn't be using SE>BB>BB. SE>BB>BB is a high enmity rotation as opposed to a high damage rotation. SE>BB is going to do more damage while generating less enmity, and SE>SP is going to keep both debuffs applied 100% of the time while doing a tiny bit less damage than SE>BB.

If you're not tanking, you shouldn't even be using SE>BB>BB since it's not optimal damage. In fact, you really shouldn't be using SE>BB>BB at any time since, if you're tanking, you should be using SP>SE>BB (low enmity, high damage, SP present), SP>BB>BB (high enmity, SP present), or SE>BB>BB>BB (highest enmity), depending upon how well your co-tank knows how to throttle their enmity.

Using Fracture, compared to the average combo attack, is an extra 100 Potency. It is also more efficient Potency per TP. Using it 6-7 times in a fight is like having an extra full combo worth of damage. Even if you're really selective on when you use Fracture and only use it when you have Maim, Berserk and Storm's Eye up and outside of Defiance (or Unchained) it's still significant. "Laughably marginal" is an exaggeration.

What you forgot to mention is that using Fracture is a whopping ~2% increase in damage with a nearly identical increase in TP consumption that also ends up ignoring the effects of bottoming out TP upon your damage due to a decrease in ability to maintain buffs, debuffs, and DoTs due to bottomed out TP. Talking about an extra full combo of damage seems like a lot until you realize that one extra combo sits on top of 50. It's entirely appropriate to call it "laughably marginal" unless you're simply dead set on justifying Fracture by presenting the information in a manner designed to force you to draw inaccurate conclusions (binary comparisons on similar quantified values instead of straight binary attributes or highly disparate values; swapping from unit to unit, forcing constant conversion rather than immediately applicable comparison).

[bokchoykn]

*snip*

I never said SE>BB>BB is something that was to be used. I simply said it shouldn't rip aggro from an conscious player with a 2x Enmity bonus.

I don't think SE>BB>BB>BB is a practical sequence. Opening with Tomahawk>SE> BB risks DPS pulling hate if they hit enough crits and procs in the first 8-10 seconds of the fight. Opening with BB>BB before going into other SE/SP combos is safer, even if it gains less total enmity in the long run. Enmity is a complete joke anyway. It's only important for the first few seconds of the pull, a newly spawned add, or a tank swap. Barring a dumbshit Paladin spamming Halone in Shield Oath, nothing should pull aggro from you.

As for Fracture, I don't use it while tanking because it doesn't contribute to Wrath stacks or maintaining debuffs. When not tanking, you don't have to worry about Wrath and you no longer have Inner Beasts clogging up our GCD's as you try to keep debuffs up. Defiance is off so you're getting more bang for your buck.

You and I have a different definition of "laughably marginal". I agree that it isn't groundbreaking, but at the end of the day, it is a DPS increase, Damage-per-TP increase, and its value is magnified by Berserk and Inner Release.

[Kitru]

I don't think SE>BB>BB>BB is a practical sequence. Opening with Tomahawk>SE> BB risks DPS pulling hate if they hit enough crits and procs in the first 8-10 seconds of the fight.

Which is why you don't ever open with the SE combo. Opening attack strings are a different monster from sustained rotations. SE>BB>BB>BB is the highest enmity rotation that WARs have available to them; if you're looking to maximize your enmity, that's what you use (not that you should really *need* to maximize your enmity since the SP>BB>BB and SE>SP>BB rotations generate more than enough in most circumstances).

If you want to talk opening rotations, however, you shouldn't need to open with more than 1 BB combo to buy you time to do SP and then BB. Even if the DPS get lucky crits, a single BB generates more than enough enmity. The best opening rotation I've found is BB>SE>BB>BB>BB with proper usage of CDs (Bloodbath when you start SE combo, Vengeance after the first BB then Unchained then Berserk then Internal Release in each GCD afterwards; you generate a disgustingly huge initial enmity cushion).

You and I have a different definition of "laughably marginal".

Using Fracture adds less to your total DPS than Internal Release does, and Internal Release doesn't mess up buff/debuff uptimes or increase TP consumption. IR is the Foresight of DPS CDs so if something adds less than it, it's safely in the "laughably marginal" range since IR is already pretty close.

[bokchoykn]

The best opening rotation I've found is BB>SE>BB>BB>BB with proper usage of CDs (Bloodbath when you start SE combo, Vengeance after the first BB then Unchained then Berserk then Internal Release in each GCD afterwards; you generate a disgustingly huge initial enmity cushion).

Why three BB combos after the SE? What's the point of that much of initial enmity cushion? Isn't that a bit overkill? You don't need to generate as much aggro as possible. You simply need to be out of reach of everyone else. The only person you're really competing with is a Paladin spamming RoH combo (hopefully in Sword Oath, but you never know...), and SE helps his enmity just as much as it helps yours.

On top of that, any lead you build over him is wiped out as soon as he Provokes the target off of you. When you Provoke it back, he's right on your heels anyway. Because enmity is such a joke, you now has a massive enmity lead over everyone except for the only person who can actually take it off of you.

This "disgustingly huge initial enmity cushion" is useless. Generating max threat is only relevant for the first 15 seconds of the pull and the first 10 seconds or so after each tank swap. Your method might generate the most long-term enmity, but I think the focus should be on generating the most enmity over the first two combos.

Using Fracture adds less to your total DPS than Internal Release does, and Internal Release doesn't mess up buff/debuff uptimes or increase TP consumption. IR is the Foresight of DPS CDs so if something adds less than it, it's safely in the "laughably marginal" range since IR is already pretty close.

Why are we talking about Internal Release again?

Fracture is higher damage-per-second and damage-per-TP than any other Warrior ability when Defiance is down. If it results in one Storm's Eye not benefiting from the previous Storm's Eye, it's still a DPS and DPTP increase. If you use Fracture only when you're in SP-SE-SP-SE mode, that's fine. You can say it's "laughable" but it comes at no cost to you, other than a button on your hotbar.

[Kitru]

Why three BB combos after the SE? What's the point of that much of initial enmity cushion? Isn't that a bit overkill?

You're dramatically increasing the enmity cushion without sacrificing much (the third BB would be replaced by an SE or SP; delaying that debuff by 12.5 seconds isn't really a major cost given the ~30% increase in enmity generation over the initial 40 seconds). The point of the "overkill" is to provide you with an explicit cushion for using a low enmity but high damage and utility rotation without the risk of getting enmity pulled off of you. If you only use SE>SP>BB, a really good DPS is capable of doing more damage than the enmity generated by this. The substantially larger cushion afforded by using BB for a third time instead of limiting it to two gives you more space at low opportunity cost.

You don't need to generate as much aggro as possible.

I'm referring specifically to the opening sequence of the fight which is the only time in a fight where I will actually attempt to absolutely maximize enmity generation because of the value of the potential enmity cushion. It's pretty much the *only* time I'll look to maximize enmity generation instead of simply generating *enough* enmity because the it allows for a very large window wherein you can still have enough while only generating a small amount of enmity.

Your method might generate the most long-term enmity, but I think the focus should be on generating the most enmity over the first two combos.

Why are we talking about Internal Release again?

Because, since we were debating the relevance of the marginality, which is a comparative term, I brought up a similar contributor as a further example of what defines marginality which modifies the term "laughably marginal" to be a category of similar performance instead of simply a descriptor to a single absolute value. The absolute value of Fracture and Internal Release are both incredibly small, enough that most of the time, people never notice the difference between using and not using the given abilities beyond the act of using the ability.

As I see it, an ability is a marginal contributor if it doesn't create a difference in performance if it doesn't provide a benefit larger than the natural variation in performance you'll achieve through situational variables, like movement and throttling requirements or lag, which is basically the only possible definition of marginal as it applies to this discussion. Unless you want to argue that *nothing* is ever a marginal contributor, which is simply naive, Internal Release is a relevant thing to bring up because it provides a reference point.

If you want another example of a marginal contributor, look at Brutal Swing. Using it is going to provide about as much as Fracture because it's 50 off-GCD potency every 20 seconds (75 potency every 30 seconds; Fracture is slightly less than 100 potency every 30 seconds, closer to 90 when you account for decrease in debuff uptime and extension of the total rotation by an additional GCD). The only reason that Brutal Swing is being observable in a pure damage scenario is because it has to be activated consciously, as opposed to being able to observe the effect in a tangible way (e.g. not just looking at the animation but rather the results of its use). If Brutal Swing were a macro'd ability set to be used on CD or some kind of trait that increased auto-attack potency by 50 for one attack every 20 seconds, you'd never notice the increase in damage unless you were using some specific tool to show minute deviations in performance (i.e. a parser).

Brutal Swing and Internal Release are appropriate to bring up in this discussion because they provide a frame of reference for marginality. Fracture provides a benefit on par with these abilities and, since those abilities are marginal contributors, Fracture is just as well. On top of this, because that marginality only looks at the increase in damage rather than relative consumption, Fracture is further marginalized by the higher opportunity cost in increasing TP consumption (recall, Fracture increases total potency/GCD by slightly over ~2% and increases TP consumption by a fraction of a percent less). You could never touch Fracture and never notice the difference. Even if you're using a parser, you're not likely to notice the difference in practical circumstances without an incredibly large data set because the benefit is so small.

On a similar level, consider Shield Swipe for PLDs: it's another marginal contributor. It provides a small increase in damage dealt and, more importantly, increase in TP efficiency, but the contributions are so small that you'd only notice them in the theoretical. Fracture is a marginal contributor for PLD as well (yes, it actually does end up being an increase in DPS to use it, but it's tiny). Every class has its marginal contributors, and Fracture is one of the more marginal contributors amongst those contributors that WAR has access to.