Warrior Tanks: Maximizing DPS Output

[bokchoykn]

*snip*

I guess we have a different idea on what is best for each boss fight and a different line of thinking. To me, being able to do the content in that gear isn't enough to make it the best gear set for that fight. Your line of thinking (correct me if I'm wrong) is that any sacrifice of survivability for damage is worth it as long as you are still able to survive the encounter. If you're able to pump out more damage and have enough HP to survive the encounter, it is therefore better. My line of thinking is more along the lines of which gear set will give us the highest percentage of success and the lowest percentage of failure. What is the single thing that is most likely to go wrong in the fight? If that thing happens, which gear set will give me the absolute best chance of fixing the problem for my party?

If I did 10000 attempts in i90 VIT, 10000 attempts in i90 STR, and 10000 attempts in i70 pentameld. Which would yield the highest win percentage?

I do a ton of EX Primals. My FC sells EX Primal carries (7-man) for gil. I help out my less-experienced friends with their weekly clears. I join PF groups to help out friends. These are all sub-optimal conditions, as opposed to 8 fully geared and experienced veterans. I want to completely minimize wipes with customers. I want to give myself the best possible chance of carrying weaker parties.

I've had situations where the other tank accidentally died in EX Titan and I had to tank 4-5 stacks of Mountain Buster. I'm not sure if I'd be able to do that in i90 STR gear and 30 STR attributes. I've had situations where too much DPS died and we won by the skin of our teeth, and there was no room to compromise my damage output. I feel that i70 pentameld is perfect for this fight. While damage is the bottleneck in this fight, I still think there's a line where VIT into STR sacrifices are no longer worth it. Going from i70 Pentameld to i90 STR is a loss of 50 VIT and 60 Parry to gain 20 STR, and I don't think it's worth it. You might feel differently about this fight (and many other fights), and that's fine. Neither of us are necessarily right or wrong.

Anyway, to answer your question: Yes, I have i90 STR Accessories. My alt is a full i90 Monk. I've tried it vs Titan but not Ifrit.

My i70 Pentameld vs My i90 Strength Accessories:

-50 Vitality
-60 Parry
-19 Accuracy
-2 Determination
-2 Skill Speed

+20 Strength
+11 Crit

[BushidoMP]

I did some comparisons between Gryphonskin / i90 DPS jewelry, and here\\'s what I got. This is using the melds I have and what I believe would be "BIS" DPS jewelry for WAR, and using 30 points in STR/HQ buttons.

Gryphonskin:
STR 448, ACC 501, CRIT 385, DET 346, SS 380, VIT 482, PAR 420

i90 DPS:
STR 468, ACC 473, CRIT 359, DET 352, SS 383, VIT 432, PAR 420

At the moment, the ACC gains in Gryphonskin are negligible, but may prove useful for T6-9. The CRIT difference puts Gryphonskin at say 2-3% higher crit rate. The DET and SS differences are negligible IMO.

It\\'s really just between choosing 20 STR or 50 VIT. I\\'d go with the VIT since that\\'s nearly 1K HP in defiance, that\\'s just me tho.

Can you post your actual gear sets? I don't see how you can have 468STR and 432VIT (your i90dps) at the same time, and are you sure you have 448STR and 482VIT in your Gryhphonskins? Are those your numbers WITH party bonus? Please post them raw if you can for a more accurate comparison.

Let me preface the next section by saying subtract 30 from VIT and then add 30 to STR. For some reason the site doesn't let you adjust your point distribution.. or I just haven't figured out how.

Here's my i90 DPS set:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LT4T

STR 469, ACC 473, CHR 413, DET 307, SSPD 372, VIT 416, Parry 410 [Adjusted for +30STR -30VIT difference on build site. No food.]

STR 469, ACC 473, CHR 421, DET 322, SSPD 372, VIT 431, Parry 410 [Adjusted for +30STR -30VIT difference on build site. + HQ Buttons]

Now, here is something close to what I would consider to be close to a hybrid BiS. Balancing stats for maximum tanking/damage effectiveness without using i70 crafted gear:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LT5A

STR 430, ACC 472, CHR 363, DET 302, SSPD 368, VIT 461, Parry 472 [Adjusted for +30STR -30VIT difference on build site. No food.]

This build has multiple advantages. Firstly, with party bonus your STR will be high enough to reach 25% damage parried, AND your parry is at a reasonable number to parry more often compared to the DPS setup. A very good balance IMO. The CHR is a lot lower, but your DET is relatively the same so you can at least rely on your baseline numbers to remain similar. I can do what I need to do with a pretty decent rotation at 372 SSPD on my DPS build so dropping to 368 doesn't hurt. For reference.. the difference between 372 SSPD and 388 SSPD changes my GCD from 2.47s to 2.45s, a marginal difference.

There's also flexibility here with food options so I would suggest either HQ Buttons again, or HQ La Noscean Toast for more Parry. Both options obviously give you more HP. If you wanted to make this (these?) build(s) food dependent for Coil accuracy cap there's room for improvement in the damage department; food for thought.

[BushidoMP]

I guess we have a different idea on what is best for each boss fight and a different line of thinking... *snip* ... If that thing happens, which gear set will give me the absolute best chance of fixing the problem for my party?

Yeah... that's essentially my logic I suppose. In an ideal scenario (i.e. my static) where the overall chance of success is high, why would I not go all out DPS if I can? But, again, don't say I'm all out sacrificing survivability. I'm arguing that in most scenarios the all DPS build has enough survivability to be viable, so the extra tanking stats aren't necessary. There's a difference between the two.

If I did 10000 attempts in i90 VIT, 10000 attempts in i90 STR, and 10000 attempts in i70 pentameld. Which would yield the highest win percentage?

Where do you come up with this stuff? There's so many variables involved here it's not even funny. Moot point, in fact, there's not even a point there that's how invalid that question is.

I do a ton of EX Primals. My FC sells EX Primal carries (7-man) for gil. I help out my less-experienced friends with their weekly clears. I join PF groups to help out friends. These are all sub-optimal conditions, as opposed to 8 fully geared and experienced veterans. I want to completely minimize wipes with customers. I want to give myself the best possible chance of carrying weaker parties.

I've had situations where the other tank accidentally died in EX Titan and I had to tank 4-5 stacks of Mountain Buster. I'm not sure if I'd be able to do that in i90 STR gear and 30 STR attributes. I've had situations where too much DPS died and we won by the skin of our teeth, and there was no room to compromise my damage output. I feel that i70 pentameld is perfect for this fight. While damage is the bottleneck in this fight, I still think there's a line where VIT into STR sacrifices are no longer worth it. Going from i70 Pentameld to i90 STR is a loss of 50 VIT and 60 Parry to gain 20 STR, and I don't think it's worth it. You might feel differently about this fight (and many other fights), and that's fine. Neither of us are necessarily right or wrong.

This goes back to the question of the point of this thread. Maximizing warrior DPS or maximizing survivability while still being able to do some damage. If you're that worried about surviving in those situations, then you don't really wanna maximize your damage. However, I certainly entertain the idea of balance, and if you would see my reply above to Rexus I posted an i90 hybrid build that would have a similar effect.

Anyway, to answer your question: Yes, I have i90 STR Accessories. My alt is a full i90 Monk. I've tried it vs Titan but not Ifrit.

My i70 Pentameld vs My i90 Strength Accessories:

-50 Vitality
-60 Parry
-19 Accuracy
-2 Determination
-2 Skill Speed

+20 Strength
+11 Crit

That's fine.. but please post your actual gear sets and stats please lol. Those numbers don't mean much without a point of reference. Also..that wasn't my question, your alt is irrelevant; I wanted to know if you've used full i90 dps/str accessories on your warrior.

----

Also, I still feel that you keep trying to prove to me the advantages of your i70 pentamelds, but without providing any numerical evidence. Obviously we each have our own opinions which is necessary to produce a debate... but I'd like to be able to compare raw numbers to actually produce a meaningful discussion/comparison that isn't based on opinion or the "just feels right" principle.

[SeraviEdalborez]

I do a ton of EX Primals. My FC sells EX Primal carries (7-man) for gil. I help out my less-experienced friends with their weekly clears. I join PF groups to help out friends. These are all sub-optimal conditions, as opposed to 8 fully geared and experienced veterans. I want to completely minimize wipes with customers. I want to give myself the best possible chance of carrying weaker parties.

I've had situations where the other tank accidentally died in EX Titan and I had to tank 4-5 stacks of Mountain Buster. I'm not sure if I'd be able to do that in i90 STR gear and 30 STR attributes. I've had situations where too much DPS died and we won by the skin of our teeth, and there was no room to compromise my damage output.

If you're going to cite non-ideal circumstances, then this is kind of a dead-end. If you don't trust your DPS to live, your co-tank to live, or your healers to heal then you should be using your idiot-proof full VIT set instead of trying to hybridize OR go all-out. Otherwise it's a weighed risk. Win security vs damage output is apples vs pizzas.

For the underlined: This shouldn't be an issue. I'm going to throw out an old argument: if your group needs higher tank damage to clear, someone is failing at their job whether that be the DPS at their rotations or everyone at living. For a faster clear? Sure, absolutely.

As an aside, if those wipe conditions are happening when selling primals that's pretty silly on the part of your party.

For the record I'm the SCH in Cage's static. For most fights except Ifrit EX and Turn 5 I'm right there with him going all-out on Cleric damage. Still have no troubles keeping him and the rest of our party up. Very ideal conditions, I'll admit.

[bokchoykn]

Yeah... that's essentially my logic I suppose. In an ideal scenario (i.e. my static) where the overall chance of success is high, why would I not go all out DPS if I can? But, again, don't say I'm all out sacrificing survivability. I'm arguing that in most scenarios the all DPS build has enough survivability to be viable, so the extra tanking stats aren't necessary. There's a difference between the two.

This is our main disconnect. If we're talking about best-in-slot for ideal scenario's only, we're splitting hairs here. Your definition of best-in-slot is vastly different than mine. Therefore, arguing over what is best-in-slot becomes pointless.

Where do you come up with this stuff? There's so many variables involved here it's not even funny. Moot point, in fact, there's not even a point there that's how invalid that question is.

The point is that my definition of best-in-slot deals with probability of success vs failure. Not what can kill the boss quickest while still being able to live. Of course, there are so many variables there such as the quality of the players you're playing with. My aim is to maximize the chances of success and minimize the chances of failure, even taking into account variables such as player error and the quality (or lack thereof) of my teammates. Yours is to killing as quickly as possible under ideal scenarios only, where your HP sacrifice is much less likely to be exposed.

This goes back to the question of the point of this thread. Maximizing warrior DPS or maximizing survivability while still being able to do some damage. If you're that worried about surviving in those situations, then you don't really wanna maximize your damage. However, I certainly entertain the idea of balance, and if you would see my reply above to Rexus I posted an i90 hybrid build that would have a similar effect.

You're taking the point of the thread out of context. This could be because of my misleading title. It could be because you didn't read the OP. Who knows. We've actually been off topic for a few pages now. The point of the topic is that DPS output should be a priority. Not the #1 priority, but at least somewhere on the Warrior priority list.

That's fine.. but please post your actual gear sets and stats please lol. Those numbers don't mean much without a point of reference. Also..that wasn't my question, your alt is irrelevant; I wanted to know if you've used full i90 dps/str accessories on your warrior.

I could, but what's the point, really? Again, our idea of "best-in-slot" are so wildly different. We'll end up talking about why OUR preferred set is better for OUR respective motives.

Also, I still feel that you keep trying to prove to me the advantages of your i70 pentamelds, but without providing any numerical evidence. Obviously we each have our own opinions which is necessary to produce a debate... but I'd like to be able to compare raw numbers to actually produce a meaningful discussion/comparison that isn't based on opinion or the "just feels right" principle.

The advantages are clear. i70 pentamelds provide the most stats, but at a cost: the stats are spread out between survivability and damage instead of being concentrated into one.

The issue is that the ariyala.com gear calculator doesn't have i70 gear there.

[bokchoykn]

If you're going to cite non-ideal circumstances, then this is kind of a dead-end. If you don't trust your DPS to live, your co-tank to live, or your healers to heal then you should be using your idiot-proof full VIT set instead of trying to hybridize OR go all-out. Otherwise it's a weighed risk. Win security vs damage output is apples vs pizzas.

I agree that Win security vs damage output is apples vs pizzas. That's where the discussion with BushidoMP has led, and we're arguing different things.

However, I COMPLETELY disagree on two of your points.

- I don't think citing non-ideal circumstances is pointless. If anything, ideal circumstances are LESS important in this discussion than non-ideal circumstances. If you have a 100% chance to succeed, what does it matter that you're killing Titan in 7:28 or 7:41? If you have a 20% chance to succeed, but your gear choice can improve it to 25%. That's where the real value is. You're killing Titan in 4 attempts instead of 5.

- As for the full VIT set being the one that is most idiot-proof, that's the main point of contention here. I believe it varies and depends on the encounter and your role.

For the underlined: This shouldn't be an issue. I'm going to throw out an old argument: if your group needs higher tank damage to clear, someone is failing at their job whether that be the DPS at their rotations or everyone at living. For a faster clear? Sure, absolutely.

As an aside, if those wipe conditions are happening when selling primals that's pretty silly on the part of your party.

I definitely agree with you that if the group needs higher tank damage to clear, somewhat is failing at their job. Even if you're carrying a buyer in a 7-man EX Titan. However, mistakes happen. DPS might d/c or die. Our win rate as a 7-man party is very high, but we've also had to recover from many seemingly lost situations.

Moreover, I play with bad players too. The skill level of the friends and randoms I play with range from A+ to F. If I solely stuck to playing with an A+ lineup, my opinion might change.

[BushidoMP]

This is our main disconnect. If we're talking about best-in-slot for ideal scenario's only, we're splitting hairs here. Your definition of best-in-slot is vastly different than mine. Therefore, arguing over what is best-in-slot becomes pointless.

I'm not talking about ideal scenario's only, I do PUG EX Primals in this gear and still survive just fine. An ideal scenario.. is an ideal scenario, but I survive just fine with randoms.

The point is that my definition of best-in-slot deals with probability of success vs failure. Not what can kill the boss quickest while still being able to live. Of course, there are so many variables there such as the quality of the players you're playing with. My aim is to maximize the chances of success and minimize the chances of failure, even taking into account variables such as player error and the quality (or lack thereof) of my teammates. Yours is to killing as quickly as possible under ideal scenarios only, where your HP sacrifice is much less likely to be exposed.

Not only do you not understand the point itself, but now you're misconstruing what I mean to convey. There is NO WAY to predict which scenario will have the greatest outcome of success solely based on your tanks gear set. That's horrible logic, that's lack of logic. A flawed thought process.

You're taking the point of the thread out of context. This could be because of my misleading title. It could be because you didn't read the OP. Who knows. We've actually been off topic for a few pages now. The point of the topic is that DPS output should be a priority. Not the #1 priority, but at least somewhere on the Warrior priority list.

Dude... what IS the point of this thread then if we're off topic? Is the topic of the thread that your way is the only right way to play tank and that anyone else that tries to contribute to the discussion will be met with a wall of refute and denial that eventually revolves around the central theme that you're right and everyone else is wrong? Dear lord.

Don't post a warrior DPS thread if you don't want to actually discuss warrior DPS and instead would rather talk about tank survivability. Furthermore, that last sentence almost entirely negates anything that can be said about warrior damage. There's only so many things a warrior CAN prioritize, if it's prioritized last then it doesn't matter. Thread over.

I could, but what's the point, really? Again, our idea of "best-in-slot" are so wildly different. We'll end up talking about why OUR preferred set is better for OUR respective motives.

Discussions are spawned by opinions and perpetuated by facts, evidence, and more opinion. Allow me to ask again, do you actually want to entertain outside input here, or do you just want to try and tell the world the i70 pentamelds are the end-all be-all of accessories and end the thread here?

The advantages are clear. i70 pentamelds provide the most stats, but at a cost: the stats are spread out between survivability and damage instead of being concentrated into one.

The issue is that the ariyala.com gear calculator doesn't have i70 gear there.

The advantages are most certainly NOT clear. You haven't provided any real numbers for us to make a meaningful comparison between gearsets. The only thing you've provided is your blind opinion based upon some random amount of experience.

Also, if you'd actually make some effort to meaningful conversation here as I've attempted to do, you would see that ariyala.com most certainly has i70 crafted gear as well as 5 materia meld slots to custom select your materia. The creator of the website plays on my server. I just saw her walk by me in Limsa, do you need me to ask her to personally confirm to you that you can indeed create your gearset there?

Please post some data for others. I'm trying to go beyond a personal debate here and actually flesh this out so that other people can benefit.

[bokchoykn]

Not only do you not understand the point itself, but now you're misconstruing what I mean to convey. There is NO WAY to predict which scenario will have the greatest outcome of success solely based on your tanks gear set. That's horrible logic, that's lack of logic. A flawed thought process.

You're right. It's impossible to say with confidence that Tank set ABC yields the highest win% for encounter XYZ. I'm not trying to find this ultimate gear combination nor am I trying to say that the gear set I use is absolutely certainly the best. That's not what I'm trying to say at all.

All I was trying to convey was this: Before we can even begin arguing what gear set is "best-in-slot" for a given encounter, we must first agree on what it means to be "best-in-slot". My concept for "best-in-slot" is the gear set that maximizes your chances at success by increasing margins of error for the rest of your party. Your concept for "best-in-slot" is the gear set that maximizes your damage while still being able to survive.

You're correct that my idea is not measurable and it's absolutely impossible to ascertain which gear set is best at maximizing your chances at success. Any attempt at creating a "best-in-slot" for this scenario is going to be completely based on hypothesis. However, the ideology is still there and I was just trying to show you that "best-in-slot" has a different meaning to you than it does to me. I think you took this idea too far.

Dude... what IS the point of this thread then if we're off topic? Is the topic of the thread that your way is the only right way to play tank and that anyone else that tries to contribute to the discussion will be met with a wall of refute and denial that eventually revolves around the central theme that you're right and everyone else is wrong? Dear lord.

At no point did I say that my way is the only right way and that it is better than yours. I have my preferred gear set for each scenario, you have yours, and I respect that. If I come off that way, I apologize, but you've been just as adamant about your opinions (if not more) than I've been about mine, so I don't know how you can try to paint me as some guy who's trying to shove his undisputable gear preferences down everyone's throats. I don't know why you're saying this and it is insulting.

Don't post a warrior DPS thread if you don't want to actually discuss warrior DPS and instead would rather talk about tank survivability. Furthermore, that last sentence almost entirely negates anything that can be said about warrior damage. There's only so many things a warrior CAN prioritize, if it's prioritized last then it doesn't matter. Thread over.

I feel that my post was constructive, helpful, and well received. You took the title too literally (again, bad choice of title on my fault too) and expected for it to share your "Damage-first" philosophy of tanking, which I personally don't agree with.

Anyway, at multiple points in the OP and the thread, I stated that DPS should be increased without incurring a major compromise to your other roles (including survivability). What might be considered a "major compromise" to me might be considered not a compromise at all to you. Which is fine. We have differing opinions on this matter. I wouldn't sacrifice 80 VIT, 60 Parry, 45 DEX for 50 STR in fight vs Titan EX.

The purpose of this thread was to bring damage output to the attention of tanks. It should be something that tanks should seriously consider, because most don't. The majority of tanks out there think it's okay to deal 80 DPS to Titan EX, because DPS is not their job. If they fail to beat the enrage timer, only the DPS is at fault.

You and I obviously agree that damage is important. We just disagree on the methodology and extent to which tanks should increase their damage. Again, that's fine. I respect that.

Discussions are spawned by opinions and perpetuated by facts, evidence, and more opinion. Allow me to ask again, do you actually want to entertain outside input here, or do you just want to try and tell the world the i70 pentamelds are the end-all be-all of accessories and end the thread here?

The advantages are most certainly NOT clear. You haven't provided any real numbers for us to make a meaningful comparison between gearsets. The only thing you've provided is your blind opinion based upon some random amount of experience.

Also, if you'd actually make some effort to meaningful conversation here as I've attempted to do, you would see that ariyala.com most certainly has i70 crafted gear as well as 5 materia meld slots to custom select your materia. The creator of the website plays on my server. I just saw her walk by me in Limsa, do you need me to ask her to personally confirm to you that you can indeed create your gearset there?

Please post some data for others. I'm trying to go beyond a personal debate here and actually flesh this out so that other people can benefit.

First of all, I didn't know this website was updated. It's been a little while since I used it. My bad.

I will post my numbers eventually but I don't see the point. Your goal when it comes to itemization is wildly different than mine. You emphasize damage more than I do and I emphasize a varied hybrid of survivability and damage (and you feel that this is wrong because of the topic I chose for this thread). For that reason, any conclusions we can draw from my stats won't solve anything because our goals have been different from the very beginning.

For what it's worth, the reason I consider i70 pentamelded accessories as my default tanking set is because it gives an absurd amount of stats. 9 STR + 10 VIT vs 15 VIT vs 13 STR. The secondary stats are very heavily in favor of the i70s. From there, I decide if losing 9 STR is worth 5 VIT or if losing 10 VIT + 12 Parry + 9 DEX is worth 4 STR.

Choosing to go for full damage or full HP is simply a matter of determining what is the primary risk of failure in the fight, how I can increase mt party's margins of error, and then deciding accordingly. That's how I do it. My methods my be abstract and not concrete, but that's not to say that it's devoid of logic. If you like to do it a different way, I respect that and I won't try to persuade you.

[Rexus]

@Bushido

With Gryphonskin, 30 STR, NO party bonus, and HQ Buttons in a Blanket:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LT71

With i90 DPS, 30 STR, NO party bonus, and HQ Buttons in a Blanket:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LT77

You have just over 7k HP w/food+party buff in Defiance, using full DPS set right? I dunno how comfortable I'd feel tanking with that amount, considering there's always the occasional moment where my HP dips to the sub 2k range, and I have 8.5k HP with my gryphon set up.

[SeraviEdalborez]

7.1k. There were some close calls getting adjusted to healing with his DPS build but it's really been no issue for the fights he's been using it for (everything except Ifrit EX and Turn 5 MT).