Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[Gandora]

Here's the irony here. Everyone wants to win, ya? Then why would you willingly participate in a party without being as prepared as possible? You don't show up to a job interview without first knowing everything about the job, and being prepared for the questions that could potentially be thrown at you.

1) Here's the Irony, looking at one video hardly make you prepared. To be prepared you need to experience the fight yourself, seeing a healer cast his cure in time wont give you the proper reflexes to cast cure at the exact good time.

2) To see a PLD take the aggro on Chirada/suparma in time & run to the right position wont magicaly give you the reflexes and the right enmity level to perform as well as in the video.

And to see a DD (BRD & BLM) fire their pew-pew wont make you a good pew-pewer, even less seeing a melee dodge, wont give you the reflexes to dodge when necessary. Do you see the Irony? thats the 1st reason why this argument is sterile.

I'm not saying walk into a boss fight like captain Einstein or something, but at least know the gist of the fight and be prepared enough that you can handle it. If you want tips, ask. Most people in the game are willing to give you a quick rundown.

Ok, what will it change if I spent one day/week watching a video from an experienced group? I am doing it (personaly) but I will hardly call that experience because I did not experience it myself, theory & practice are 2 different things. Ok I will know the paterns of the fight its positive and it will contribute for sure, will I know when Garuda will decide to wheel my face? no I wont, it could kill me & get me booted. I have been watching a video for 1 week & got killed because of one silly thing I couldn't dodge in time.. I don't understand... I studyed it like a good boy. You see the Irony here again? 2nd reason why the argument is sterile.

People are going to bail, or boot you, for being unprepared and holding the group back. Rightfully so. If you lied, or haven't learned from your mistakes, you shouldn't won't likely ever win. That simple. And you won't...ever. Enjoy buying your run because you yourself haven't learned to contribute to the party by coming prepared.

3)But wait! I spent the week watching Garuda's Vid 8h/day ! I know what I am doing ; ; !!! Please refer to 1)

Oh, and enjoy queuing over and over again for the same reason - your own stubborn selfishness and inability to learn a fight.

I like how high & mighty you talk here, like if it was incredibly exceptional to be able to learn a patern, you guys must be gifted, I mean for real! The whole "You should watch a vid" argument should really end there, because this game isn't about skill at all.. FFXI was, XIV is all based on reflexes and memory, those are 2 very different things.

To be a good driver you need to practice, the code is only to ensure you will respect the law on the road.
To be a good player you need to practice, the vid is only here to ensure you know how it will be on the fight.
For the job interview you need to revise many point, knowing everything about the job will make you aware but wont make you good at it.

Flash news! Irony & fact all in one! The code doesn't make you a good driver, The vid doesn't make you a good player, the study of a job doesn't make you good at it!

All of that just to confirm, experience > all. Not alot of people have the courage to make a "training party" because they know that 2 persons out of 8 might not stay long enough & or will want to bail due to impatience or the "sorry my FC need me" excuse.

[Rivienne]

As many have pointed out: you won't have all the answers simply by watching a video. You WILL have a general idea, though. That is all most of us are asking for: not for you to be an expert the minute you step foot in an instance.

I do not want to spend another 111 attempts doing DF Titan HM only to succeed 3 times. I do not want OTHER players to experience that as well.

The problem is, and this is important: you cannot control DF. No matter how many times you try and post on the forums or yell and scream it would make things easier. Therefore you shouldn't try, instead you should encourage people you do know to NOT df content if they are new. But practice with FC people or use PF.

I just have to wonder (because I haven't bothered to look any of you up): how many of you have actually done this content where videos would have helped you ahead of time? I keep getting the impression that the people responding with, "No! We shouldn't have to watch a video to win!" are players that consider things like DF WP and AK as the end.

In my experience, most of the people with attitudes like me do in fact do the hard content. People who stop at the early 50 dungeons usually don't play much, or only craft. So they are unlikely to even be involved in a discussion like this.

Curious as to what you do (if you have) on things like Titan/Ifrit and Twin. Did you think any of the strategies you used were not generated by people who did it prior? That they weren't the strategies we used when we did the extremes first day of the patch? That everyone follows now because it makes sense to do it that way?

So basically what you want to do is go try one of these extreme/coil fights just so you can follow a strategy that was taken from a video whether you are aware of it or not? I see. This makes no sense whatsoever.
...
You are actually following a strategy from a video whether you know it or not but somehow it's not an intelligent thing to do, in your head, to watch the video ahead of time.

You seem to miss the fact I don't care if other people beat the content first. Fundamental difference. We do not think the same. You are trying to project your opinion and play style on others, that do not share that opinion.

For me the fun is challenging myself and determining if I can come up with a strategy to solve content, not to find a strategy online and follow it. You have a very different perspective. That is fine. I really don't care.

Why does it matter if a strategy already exists, even the same one I come up with? That is irrelevant to if I personally (and obviously in conjunction with a group of like minded individuals) can come with said strategy, rather than merely follow it.

I also enjoy going in after I have found strategies that work, and continue to try different things. By your logic, why would I? I already know how to beat the content with one strategy. What value in intentionally throwing out the method used to win, and trying to come up with a different one? Clearly I don't think that way, and nor do those I typically play with. For us it is about the challenge not simply the solution.

That's nice. If you had read the argument, you'd realize DF is actually an amalgamation of people with different skill levels. In certain encounters, DF rarely succeeds. In order to increase success rate, there isn't much you can do besides coming prepared.

You might be happy with not defeating something on your first try. How about the other person in the party who is there for the 53rd time and is relying on you to perform well?

You say you won't impose yourself upon people like this but if you ever decide to join a DF extreme primal, this is what you will be doing.

The problem is you can't control the entire situation but you can increase success rate which you seem to refuse to want to do.

I am stating that you cannot control who is in DF. You cannot. No matter how often you encourage people to watch a video and read a guide first, including on the forums. You cannot control whether they actually do. So if this is something that frustrates you, then avoid DF. You cannot control what other people do, only what you yourself do. The developers have also stated that kicking people for being bad is an abuse of the system, so that shouldn't be on the table either. Therefore if you are going to use DF, be okay with the possibility of non-stop failure and rare success, or don't do it. I am not encouraging people to go in blind to DF, nor am I encouraging people to watch videos before hand. Rather, I am encouraging people who go into DF to expect other people who are at different levels of preparedness and experience and deal with it.

As for me, I don't DF anything new anymore, why would I? I have an FC and we also now have PF to form groups with even more like minded people.

When this discussion has come up with new 50's in FC, I tell them that they do not need to watch videos or research the hard content, but that if they don't it may take a longer before they are able to beat (or reliably beat) content, so they should play whichever way fits them best. I do discourage them using DF if they have a problem with failing repeatedly, because it is going to frustrate them. I will never say people should conform to either mindset. Instead they should do whatever fits them best, and just group accordingly.

[Doo]

Not everyone sees failure as suffering, or solving challenges without guides as encouraging mediocrity.

Me neither failure makes me want to succeed even more. What I hate is when you know there's no chance of winning because others can't dodge or whatever while you play perfectly over and over again.

[OPneedNerfs]

Claiming watching videos doesnt help while saying you're repeatedly wiping to the same mechanic over and over again even after doing it tons of times... that doesn't show videos arent helpful, it just shows you're bad.

[Goodberry]

Know how many fights I won prior to 2.1 in DF? Three. Three out of 108 fights.

The only conclusion I drew from your long post is that you won 3 out of 108 fights. You were in all of those 105 losses, and you blame everybody except yourself. Usual MMO game attitude: feeling a special snowflake surrounded by "bads". :P

Many of your reactions to doing research on a fight beforehand speak about your actions in the real world. Are you also an irresponsible student who does not read the chapter(s) before going to class to discuss them? Are you an irresponsible adult who doesn't do any research on a company before an interview with that company? My guess would be yes.

Strange, in my (and many other people's) experience people who obsess over a game and dedicate lots of time to it tend not to be the ones who do best at school or at work. Speaking of interviews, I don't advise anybody to try: "I research boss fights really well." Most examiners will be unimpressed. :P

[Jynx]

Here's the irony here. Everyone wants to win, ya? Then why would you willingly participate in a party without being as prepared as possible? You don't show up to a job interview without first knowing everything about the job, and being prepared for the questions that could potentially be thrown at you.

Looks like I need to home in on the key point here.....

You don't show up to a job interview without first knowing everything about the job, and being prepared for the questions that could potentially be thrown at you.

Not yet...

You don't show up to a job interview without first knowing everything.

Getting closer...

You don't show up to a job.

Were playing a game right not a...

job

This is a game, not a job. Some people would rather experience it fresh.

[Goodberry]

Right. A game, not a job. Taking the game a bit less seriously would do a lot of good to the community. Being a little HUMBLER would do a lot of good too. If I were impressed by people posing as Einstein, I'd go to a physics forum.

[Doo]

This is a game, not a job. Some people would rather experience it fresh.

Farming, gathering, and crafting feels like a job. Making gil feels like blue collar work since you got out into the hot summer fields or the cold winter snow and hit X, X , X , X , X , X , X /repeat. Training newbies over and over again feels jobish as well. I guess you gotta do some work even if it's a video game to have some fun?

[Dracosavarian]

Too many people take this so seriously, seeming to me to feel more then just a tad bit of anger that someone hasn't watched videos and comes into a fight unaware of what is happening or what will happen. I say unaware because unprepared I feel is an ill fitting word for this debate. You are never truly prepared for what will come. Only experience and time grants you that little bonus. But as to people's feelings, yeah...more then just a little vitriol. Back before the patch when repair costs were astronomical, I could kind of understand. Now? Not so much.

As many have stated. This is a game. Something of enjoyment and pleasure. While there can be the counter argument of "I need my enjoyment too! So why aren't you watching videos to contribute to my own success and that of the group!? ", I feel it is a bit of a selfish avenue to take. Yes, everyone has their own reasons for doing as they will. Some players like to go into dungeons by fly by the seat of their pants methods, and generally I feel Duty Finder is fine for this. But honestly a lot of this thread is not coming off as common courtesy. Rather, it's coming off as people expecting others to do as they wish. Not an overly healthy attitude to take IMO. But that's just me.

If folks are really hung up on requirements and enforcing any of their wishes, Party Finder is there to fulfill your every need. In that setup, it's understandable to impose your own rules. Especially if you are creating the party.

Oh, and Hitome. I did read over your stuff, but the basic matter is, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't let it bother you as it seems it has. There are far more important things in life to get worked up over compared to a disagreement with some random person on the internet. *Shrugs* Don't let it bother you.

[ispano]

The only conclusion I drew from your long post is that you won 3 out of 108 fights. You were in all of those 105 losses, and you blame everybody except yourself. Usual MMO game attitude: feeling a special snowflake surrounded by "bads". :P

The thing with the Titan fights, it could very well be true. I rarely get hit by any avoidable mechanic in the Titan fights. And in DF, even PF, I see people get hit all the time. I won't claim to be perfect, no one is. But when you clearly are the only one getting hit less than once per 20 attempts or more, then he has the right conclusion. The "you were part of all those losses too" only works if the person is genuinely the cause of the failures. And some people aren't.