Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[Dracosavarian]

Stuff

My original comment was not even in regards to any of this stuff. But rather, towards your assuming other players not having the same passion as the trail blazers, as you so eloquently put it in a round about way. I have no idea why you went off on the tangent you did, but, hey. More power to you. *Shrugs*



Regardless and irrespective of your thoughts. My beliefs and thoughts still stand. I strongly believe in helping other players and not being a jerk. All one has to do is go into DF and do the final bits of the main story quest to run into your fair share of those. Impatient speed runners who have not the time nor inclination to wait for someone new to watch the CS's on their first time through. I am not being hypocritical whatsoever. I am standing firmly by my views, which is that it is wrong to enforce upon others that watching videos is a required thing before you can even go into matters and learn on your own. It's a train of thought that is wrong, and Kuwagami's own experiences as well as mine prove that to ring resoundingly true.

Videos, as I said, are not some magical panacea that will instantly make players better. Time, patience, the willingness to help others make it through content, even primals on extreme however, goes a heck of a lot farther in completing your goals. Experiencing something first hand always trumps seeing it on youtube. Always.


Sorry to see that you disagree with that. Regardless, I wish you well even though we disagree and likely will continue to do so. I ask only that you consider another's thoughts before deigning to think for them, which was my original issue. Assumption of how others handle things and their reasoning for doing such.

[Jynx]

Well people do set aside time for the game.

Good for them, they knew when they signed up that they would be playing with people who might have differening opinions than they do.

Do I watch fights beforehand and try to get the fight right the first time? I sure as hell do.

Do I expect everyone to do what I do? Nope, if I want people to know their stuff from the get-go I run with people I know. I can't expect a random guy to play the game the way I want him to play, he has every right to learn the fight whatever way he wants. Will said person be shunned from "Experienced playerz only guyz" Sure why not finding a group of like minded people is part of what the game having a community should be about.

I could go on about how XIV is very anti community and fights a uphill battle as long as they keep aspects of the game so heavy in certain areas, but let's just say this isn't a problem in many games because you actually had to find people to play with instead of being randomly slotted with others.

As soon as you press that duty finder button all bets are off, There is a good chance that at least one person in your group of randomly selected people will play differently than the rest. Good thing you can you know...talk to people. If there is one stuborn guy who rammed the duty finder button expecting people to crash and burn with him when nobody else wants to, vote him out because he is disrupting your play.

Find yourself in a group with more than one member of this mindset? Vote Abandon or deal with it.

You have the tools available to you to avoid "Unwanted nonsense" but people more often choose to try the path of least resistance (Duty Finder) against the method that works (Know the people you play with) and expect others to bend to their will.

On either side of the fence there needs to be common courtesy but shunning people because of their playstyle just isn't cool nor is it fair to anyone.

Some people enjoy the game being a unknown challenge, some just want to bring the game down to a sequence of macros and forward knowledge. Both can Co-Exist, hell both can play together if their willing to bend.

[Hitome]

Regardless and irrespective of your thoughts. My beliefs and thoughts still stand. I strongly believe in helping other players and not being a jerk. All one has to do is go into DF and do the final bits of the main story quest to run into your fair share of those. Impatient speed runners who have not the time nor inclination to wait for someone new to watch the CS's on their first time through. I am not being hypocritical whatsoever. I am standing firmly by my views, which is that it is wrong to enforce upon others that watching videos is a required thing before you can even go into matters

You seem to be missing this point over and over again. I'll gladly spell it out for you a hundred times, though, just as I would gladly explain any strategy to a DF group over and over again before the time limit expires.

No one is forcibly DEMANDING people watch videos before they do something for the first time. Most of us are saying it is highly encouraged: benefiting yourself and your group.

It's a train of thought that is wrong, and Kuwagami's own experiences as well as mine prove that to ring resoundingly true.

So, "My experiences are the only ones valid. This other guy on the forums also validates my experiences."

No, sorry. This isn't how it works and this is the kind of attitude I was referring to. Since you have misinterpreted the main point many times over, it is safe to assume that you have no idea what 'train of thought' anyone recommending video advice is describing.

Really, though: you appear to be a bleeding heart, willing to help everyone and anyone. How many times have you actually run Titan HM in DF? I'm very curious. Do you think a 3/111 win to total runs done ratio is an acceptable figure? I got my first DF win on the 53rd try. Do you think that's a reasonable number of Titan runs to do until you can beat him?

Giving these statistics (that you seem to lack yourself), do you still think that these people would not have benefited from reading a strat. or watching a video before entering? It's really a rhetorical question because the obvious answer is yes: they would have benefited.

So then my question would be: "Why do you seek to dissuade people from being prepared for these encounters with such low success rates in your average DF run?"

Again, I don't need an answer. You would rather 1 or more of the 7 people suffer on their 54th attempt rather than realizing you were part of a community that depends on you, adapting better habits as a result.

You see: when I break down your character like this, you really don't strike me as the noble crusader you made yourself out to be. Your intentions may be good but, when it comes down to it, you appear to be a little inconsiderate.

I posed a question to my boyfriend, who doesn't play FF14, after explaining this situation we are discussing. He at first started to agree with you: saying that, "No, I wouldn't look at a strategy or video before doing content. That would be kind of boring." and then quickly realized, "Oh: I get it. The people that you are referring to think they are still playing a single player game." and quickly changed his mind.

Videos, as I said, are not some magical panacea that will instantly make players better. Time, patience, the willingness to help others make it through content, even primals on extreme however, goes a heck of a lot farther in completing your goals. Experiencing something first hand always trumps seeing it on youtube. Always.

I implore you to do some reading before hitting the post button in the future. I would very much appreciate it.

As many have pointed out: you won't have all the answers simply by watching a video. You WILL have a general idea, though. That is all most of us are asking for: not for you to be an expert the minute you step foot in an instance.

I honestly find it very difficult to be down to earth and rational with people on this forum sometimes. It would be very easy for me to just retreat back into my FC where we do this content almost daily where the success rate is abysmal in DF. I wouldn't have to deal with the general population and, thus, would defeat the purpose of me playing a MMO: to interact with the online community.

If you wanted an elitist mindset: the reality is that, come 2.2, many of us in these FCs will be formulating strategies to the new fights that do not have any strategies for them currently out. We will probably hit a bump in the road but succeed in the end due to level of play and gear compared to the general population just like 2.1. You will, unwittingly, end up following these same strategies we had used whenever it is that you had gotten to the content. Some guy in your party will have done his homework and will gladly explain things to you because it makes him feel good since he knows something that others do not.

It's almost like I'm talking to the same people who would tell other players to disregard using food because it was a DF run in 2.0 (and even into 2.1). Almost like you wish to spread mediocrity instead of encouraging players to do all within their power to succeed. Who knows how big the stink would be if people requested that you bring medicinal supplies or other things with you as well.

Read this well. You see: I don't care whether people watch videos or not. I don't care whether people read strategies or not. I don't care if we wipe until the time limit is up nor do I care to think about people that might have inconvenienced me by not doing their homework. I just grin and carry. That's all you really can do.

The minute someone decides to encourage mediocrity, on the other hand, is when I start to care. Advising players to not use all the resources available to them is absolutely disturbing.. Whether players use those resources or not is up to them.

This entire time you've been reading my posts but have not understood what I have been saying. We are actually arguing about the same point: do not force your playstyle on another person. You are telling me not to force people to watch videos (to which I told you I do not) and I am telling you to please stop encouraging people to not use resources that are readily available to them (even if you choose to use them or not).

I've considered your thoughts. I don't ask that you consider mine.

I will continue to pop into PF groups seeking help or queuing for DF runs for things I don't need just because it's fun to interact with the rest of the community from time to time. Helping people is how I learned to play MMOs and not get bored while still earning a sense of satisfaction. You're free to continue to encourage players to play on sub-par levels as well, of course.

I believe actions speak louder than words. See you in DF.

[Doo]

Woooooooooooooooo! Good read Hitome, I wholeheartedly agree

I have a fc member tell a tank not to use food because he was just oting Garuda EX and I was like WHATTT!!?? Don't listen to him!! He was petty low on health a couple of times and the food might of saved him.

Pretty much that's what it is. Players act like it's a single player game and their experience and time is worth more than others.

[Dashuto]

Sociopaths: The Thread

[Darkdrover]

Duty Finder-be unprepared, go in without knowing anything about the fights with minimal gear etc etc, learn the fight, have fun!
Party Finder-know the fight, know what it takes to win, don't join unless you can meet the criteria of the party leader (ilevel, exp, 2 fails=kick etc)

I have found this to be hands down the best way to clear endgame content. I never expect a clear in DF, but I DO expect one in a PF, unless one specifically states that its a training party. That's the awesome thing about PF, you can join like minded people who wont ragequit on the 2nd wipe, and actually care about progressing during the fight. I just don't see a problem with this current configuration. I learned Ultima HM from DF, and got the clear from PF. If people are accepting of this configuration, content will never be a problem!

[IndigoHawk]

Not everyone sees failure as suffering, or solving challenges without guides as encouraging mediocrity.

I beat Titan HM in DF. Titan killed me many times. I did not study the fight. I learned as I played and solved it. As I developed my solution, I checked guides for ideas. Every player should be encouraged to challenge the content fresh, only researching if they get stuck, frustrated, or want new ideas.

When I help people, I don't give tips unless people ask, and I encourage people to try a couple times cold. I don't play to teach farming. I provide an experienced player, not a carry.

Hitome, you realize that helping people is satisfying. However, you think helping means teaching strategies. I think helping means giving people a competent ally while they develop a solution. Solving the challenge is more fun than being told the answer.

[Hitome]

Not everyone sees failure as suffering, or solving challenges without guides as encouraging mediocrity.

This surprises me. Do you remember a certain thread about a week or two ago involving Titan Ex? Many people were quite upset with him. I could link you to about 5 threads regarding complaints about Titan HM as well. I would say these players do not enjoy death.

But I agree with your overall point: failure is not necessarily suffering. To me, failing a fight just means I need to do better next time. We are the minority in this regard. Been in DF lately? Two attempts is pretty much all it takes before you see a vote abandon pop up. :\ People have no will power and no patience.

Hitome, you realize that helping people is satisfying. However, you think helping means teaching strategies. I think helping means giving people a competent ally while they develop a solution. Solving the challenge is more fun than being told the answer.

I agree. Which is why I posted this earlier in the thread:

Except sat in DF HM Titan pre 2.1 for hours upon hours helping new players to the fight. I didn't care what kind of gear they had, what prior experience they had, or anything else. I had no expectations: it was Titan HM in a DF group. I did not attempt to teach the new players: just let them experience it for the first time. Know how many fights I won prior to 2.1 in DF? Three. Three out of 108 fights.

Yes, not everyone learns by videos. I assume many were able to get a little bit of experience in all of those fights even after dying so much. However, as you can see by the success rate, doing your research is probably a wise idea.

My attitude in FF14: Why should I need to watch a video? Every encounter I've been involved with I've overcome. I've done it all and have cleared most content faster than ~97% of my server and ~95% of the general population.

You can leave learning a fight to DF matches. If a PF group requests experienced players and a person knowingly joins without any experience, he/she deserves what they get.

DF will always be extremes. You can hide behind anonymity and will never see most of the people there again.

Even with these hindrances, you can still learn quite a lot in DF.

I honestly wish people would read what I write. I do not give advice unless asked. I was silent during most of the Titan HM runs unless I saw a place to make a comment that would improve group morale or offer up a new strategy.

I myself have told you I do not use strategies or videos on my first go around. Some of us do not need them. But, from my experience in DF, many could benefit from them.

Again, I ask: what endgame DF content have you all done and how many times? I am talking about HM primals and Ex primals. I'd venture a guess and say that this is not a popular activity for many people. Low tome reward, no gear incentives one you get what you want, etc. I've been there doing Ifrit/Garuda/Titan HM DF since September. The first time I did Titan DF for fun was in November.

On top of that, I was part of a LS that helped people through Titan HM for free on a regular basis.

My claims are not without merit. 111 runs alone on Titan is quite a large sample size. Now my next goal is to do Titan Ex in a DF (already knocked out the other two). I really wish some of you would give DF Titan a shot now and let me know how it works.

[Gandora]

People have no will power and no patience.

You know its what "2 fail = kick" parties are all about as well?

[SeleneSinclair]

Here's the irony here. Everyone wants to win, ya? Then why would you willingly participate in a party without being as prepared as possible? You don't show up to a job interview without first knowing everything about the job, and being prepared for the questions that could potentially be thrown at you.

I'm not saying walk into a boss fight like captain Einstein or something, but at least know the gist of the fight and be prepared enough that you can handle it. If you want tips, ask. Most people in the game are willing to give you a quick rundown.

People are going to bail, or boot you, for being unprepared and holding the group back. Rightfully so. If you lied, or haven't learned from your mistakes, you shouldn't won't likely ever win. That simple. And you won't...ever. Enjoy buying your run because you yourself haven't learned to contribute to the party by coming prepared.

Oh, and enjoy queuing over and over again for the same reason - your own stubborn selfishness and inability to learn a fight.