Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[Ruethryl]

This has been pretty much my experience. Videos are not some magical panacea, and they are a poor substitute for a willingness to learn and actual experience.

That sums it up best.. my biggest problem with videos.. people become sheep and only do it by w/e video is most popular at the time when half the time there are better ways to do things! There are also some really questionable videos out there >.>;

[Rivienne]

Logic: You can (and should) always seek to be a better player. You were not server first. You were not world first. If you tried harder, you might could be that way. You are skilled as a player but not the most skilled. World first groups may contain the most skilled player of a certain job but certainly not all of the players in that group are the top echelon of that job.

Corollary: There is no way for a progression oriented player to become better besides practice since most of the fights do not have strategies attached to them during the time that you do them in (aka: first few days of a new patch). Furthermore, you are not the only thing holding you back: there are 7 other players influencing your status in most cases.


In this way, progression oriented players are the ones who formulate the strategies. If we were to use school as an analogy, progression oriented players would be the ones who lay down the rules and laws as observed (and tested) by them while students are the ones who study those rules and laws.


Conclusion: Those who knowingly have access to a breadth of knowledge yet refuse to use it seek only to emulate those who came before them yet without the same passion and desire.

You are being fairly logical about this (which thanks, it frustrates how most people aren't). But you seem to be making several assumptions here that are fundamentally not true for everyone.

First: I agree that players should not be lying about experience and joining parties that are looking for it. It is almost always frustrating both for them when they constantly get kicked, and for the party who is just trying to down content they already know. That isn't at issue here.

But second: this isn't a job to me. It isn't school. It is a game. For me, the fun is in solving problems. Not solving them first. But solving them at all. Why play a game where I have all the answers? Why pull out a puzzle and then follow someone else's exacting instructions to put it together? The fun is in the solving, not merely in the completing.

Efficiency says I should always try and find someone else who did something first, so I don't have to. However this is a game, which I do not even play professionally. For the challenge of solving things. Efficiency is only as relevant as the person's approach to the game.

I have no interest in being world first. What does that have to do with challenging myself? Therefore your argument that I am merely "emulating" those who came first is false, and irrelevant. I don't care if someone else has done it first. I get no thrill out of trying to tell other people they aren't as good as me and aren't allowed to challenge themselves because I did it first.

I don't care if I am the best player. I am not. I am however above average. This is something it took me a long time to realize, as I assumed I was well below average. But since I really don't care about being best, merely about enjoying myself and solving problems and formulating strategies on my own merits, it doesn't matter to me how much you try and convince me it isn't as efficient, or I will never be as good. That isn't the point for me (though clearly it is for many people).

My opinion on this, as it always has been, is that those who have a problem with other people playing "lazy" and "inefficiently" should stay away from them. They do in fact have the right to form experienced parties only. And kick people who lie their way in. But, this does not mean they also have the right to tell those other players how to play in general. Only how to play if they are going to play with them.

That seems to be a fundamental difference here: I don't force myself on experienced people. I in fact will warn people ahead of time I am going in blind, and that I have no interest in being hand fed answers. If this is a problem, I will leave, or they will. No hard feelings.

So for those who are arguing that people should conform to the rules of the PF, and not try to group with them if they won't play the same: I absolutely agree. But that doesn't mean I think it is required in general, or should be put out as the only way to play.

As for DF, it has always been for people who don't have access to an easy group so they can progress (and yes practice). So you will always get people of different mentalities. You can't avoid that. So know going in you can't control the situation and be okay with that, or don't join.

Until they add options to DF to try and segregate players (which I honestly never see happening), this will always be the case. Personally I often join DF titan to help groups learn. I find it fun when I get a group that is actually willing to learn. The rest who constantly give up, never learn. With or without videos and tutorials. The things that holds back DF titan is the lack of willingness to learn. Not the lack of research.

[MeiUshu]

I agree with your comments for hte most part, except for Titan, I am afraid, at times, it may look as if someone doesnt wnat to learn but in truth that person cant do better then what said person is doing for reasons, that too is assuming that beacuse someone cant, he or she automatically doesnt want to learn, but simply that person cant because of .either technical issues or and yes it exists incapacity to actually understand accuratedly what is being said....should those be simply forbidden to play ? well no, they actually do what you said, they challenge themselves...and if they manage they truely made it on their own merit.

As for group that leaves, you are part of a group and even if you vote no to the *abandon* if majority says *yes* you are out, that doesnt mean you dont want to lean just that someone else decided you couldnt go on, careful with such statements of yours, while in essences true, they are not an absolute truth

Mei

[TeaTimeBear]

Forum politics you all are locked in an eternal stalemate, neither side willing to come to some kinda agreement, nay they choose to beat each other with words to feel right on a gaming forum.

[Doo]

But it in no way should be required.

It's not hence why the title just says "common courtesy". You're not playing solo and others depend on you to perform your role.

People are just mad because they think "OH WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO DO EXTRA WERKZZ!! I PLAYZ FOR FUNZZIES!" I think is a bad way to look at it.

[Rivienne]

It's not hence why the title just says "common courtesy". You're not playing solo and others depend on you to perform your role.

People are just mad because they think "OH WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO DO EXTRA WERKZZ!! I PLAYZ FOR FUNZZIES!" I think is a bad way to look at it.

I think we can all agree that we don't all play the same, and should play with those who are like minded. I will not force myself on people who don't play the same as I do, so kindly do the courteous thing, and do the same.

Your opinion is not mine. I will not join your "experienced only/know the rotations/must do your research" party. Similarly don't join my "new players welcome/no experience required" party.

As long as both sides follow this basic "common courtesy", this is a non issue.

[Gandora]

as said by odie, if a video was needed before any tryings, SE would give us a dev swift completion of every new content, ruining both the fun of new things AND the challenge of said things.

Or so they will release half assed videos like the one for AV in FFXI, just to troll the playerbase =D

[IndigoHawk]

To some people, winning is the fun part of the game. They don't enjoy failure. They want everyone to research to reduce challenge. The perfect game is winning on the first try as quickly as possible.

To others, fun is learning, failing, and succeeding. I like to take on challenges fresh. When I'm experienced, I like to play with a mix of vets and noobs to keep things challenging and interesting. The perfect game is struggling and earning success.

The two perspectives aren't compatible. Fortunately FFXIV provides PF. I don't think winning should be the default mindset for DF. Let PF be for winning, while DF is a challenging mix of vets and noobs. No research required.

I guess the JP community uses DF for winning and PF for learning. I don't like this approach because there's less challenge, less mixing of vets and noobs. It optimizes farming and isolates noobs. It's ok that different places have different gaming values, but I don't want this approach in NA community.

[Gandora]

I guess the JP community uses DF for winning and PF for learning. I don't like this approach because there's less challenge, less mixing of vets and noobs. It optimizes farming and isolates noobs. It's ok that different places have different gaming values, but I don't want this approach in NA community.

Ohh because the current approach doesn't isolate the beginners?

[Hitome]

It's funny that you mention burdens. Time and time again, I am responsible for bearing the weight of the parties lives upon my shoulders as a Tank. Yet the above is the very cited attitude is what leads to many dying despite my having looked at things and prepared before diving in. Assumptions. Or a will and desire to not explain things so that I can keep people alive. Funny thing that. Tanks have an extraordinary responsibility upon their shoulders. More than DPS ever will. Dps can screw up and no one will notice. But if the tank even slips in the slightest, it is noticed immediately. And boy do we hear about it.

You most likely thought this was probably clever since you could assumed my only role was DPS, thinking I haven't played a tank. Perhaps you thought you could garner sympathy for your cause. "Yes we tanks carry an extraordinary responsibility! I'm not lazy at all."

My PLD is i81. It's the most boring job I have at 50 with an ilevel higher than 80. Know what's more difficult? My MNK. My BLM. My SCH. Only BRD instills the same boredom that PLD does in me and yes: boredom, in this situation, equates to easiness.

I won't belittle your PLD, though. It's your job. But please don't think you have it hard.

Your response makes me think you are speaking about DF in the sense of myth farming dungeons instead of what we're actually speaking about: primals and endgame. You realize this is the name of the thread, right?

Other stuff

Honestly, the only thing I've read from you in this thread was what I quoted. Your arguments don't persuade me. The only reason I even quoted you was

But it in no way should be required.

Which is what many seem to wish to enforce upon others. Because hey, reasons of selfishness and impatience.

only because of this. It's hypocritical.

You then went on to state that since you're a PLD, you're here to help people. Please stop using lines like this. I DF as a healer, DPS, and a tank yet on all three I'm there to help people. Your role as a tank doesn't mean anything in a game where people can play all three on one character. You do remember we were speaking of DF, right?

It's funny that you chastise me for wanting someone to have a certain mindset when you seek to do the very same thing. haha

I already stated:

No one wants to enforce people to watch videos: we just think it's a good idea and any player seeking to be a well-rounded individual (whether in the real world or their FFXIV job) should strive to come as prepared as possible.

And with that, I have nothing more to say to you less you somehow come to an understanding as to why it is a bad thing to willingly inconvenience other humans.

But second: this isn't a job to me. It isn't school. It is a game. For me, the fun is in solving problems. Not solving them first. But solving them at all. Why play a game where I have all the answers? Why pull out a puzzle and then follow someone else's exacting instructions to put it together? The fun is in the solving, not merely in the completing.

As many have pointed out: you won't have all the answers simply by watching a video. You WILL have a general idea, though. That is all most of us are asking for: not for you to be an expert the minute you step foot in an instance.

I do not want to spend another 111 attempts doing DF Titan HM only to succeed 3 times. I do not want OTHER players to experience that as well. For me, it was fine because I didn't need anything and I had no expectations. I knew what I was getting into. Can you imagine how others saw it, though? Those who actually needed the kill for their relic? Those who had been in my spot yet never once succeeded? It would be infuriating for them to join a Titan run in DF, where they had already put in the work, only to have someone not mention they're new and/or die every time to obvious prescripted events and/or didn't meet the minimum gear requirement that Titan should have had to begin with.

One of these problems has been fixed to alleviate strain. It has not solved all the problems with things like DF primals, though. What HAS helped many people is watching videos. Every time I go into Ifrit Ex in DF or in a PF group, I see most people follow the MrHappy strategy. People learned how to do that fight from a video yet some of you claim this can never happen.

I just have to wonder (because I haven't bothered to look any of you up): how many of you have actually done this content where videos would have helped you ahead of time? I keep getting the impression that the people responding with, "No! We shouldn't have to watch a video to win!" are players that consider things like DF WP and AK as the end.

Curious as to what you do (if you have) on things like Titan/Ifrit and Twin. Did you think any of the strategies you used were not generated by people who did it prior? That they weren't the strategies we used when we did the extremes first day of the patch? That everyone follows now because it makes sense to do it that way?

So basically what you want to do is go try one of these extreme/coil fights just so you can follow a strategy that was taken from a video whether you are aware of it or not? I see. This makes no sense whatsoever.

I feel like Meryl Streep now.

When I type it out like that and think about what I just wrote, it makes your argument seem even more disillusioned. You are actually following a strategy from a video whether you know it or not but somehow it's not an intelligent thing to do, in your head, to watch the video ahead of time.

My opinion on this, as it always has been, is that those who have a problem with other people playing "lazy" and "inefficiently" should stay away from them. They do in fact have the right to form experienced parties only. And kick people who lie their way in. But, this does not mean they also have the right to tell those other players how to play in general. Only how to play if they are going to play with them.

That seems to be a fundamental difference here: I don't force myself on experienced people. I in fact will warn people ahead of time I am going in blind, and that I have no interest in being hand fed answers. If this is a problem, I will leave, or they will. No hard feelings.

That's nice. If you had read the argument, you'd realize DF is actually an amalgamation of people with different skill levels. In certain encounters, DF rarely succeeds. In order to increase success rate, there isn't much you can do besides coming prepared.

You might be happy with not defeating something on your first try. How about the other person in the party who is there for the 53rd time and is relying on you to perform well?

You say you won't impose yourself upon people like this but if you ever decide to join a DF extreme primal, this is what you will be doing.

As for DF, it has always been for people who don't have access to an easy group so they can progress (and yes practice). So you will always get people of different mentalities. You can't avoid that. So know going in you can't control the situation and be okay with that, or don't join.

The problem is you can't control the entire situation but you can increase success rate which you seem to refuse to want to do.