Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[Dracosavarian]

Regardless, the burden is upon those players. If they join a group (you remember we're playing with other players, right?) with this mentality where the group seeks experienced players only, they've violated the agreement upon joining.

If these players would stick to their own communities that would be fine. Most don't. Most want to try to figure things out on their own and think PF is the place to do it in when the run specifies experienced players/players with high end gear...yet this is not the place.

DF doesn't give us an option to separate ourselves from these types of players. Therefore, the best solution to a DF group is to come fully prepared. Sure, you can talk about strategy (but then you aren't really fully prepared..are you?) but that's about it. Everything else should be straight forward.

Yet this is RARELY the case in DF.

DF is the line. Too many of these players cross the line into the PF because they somehow think it will be easier for them.

Ironically you seem to be contradicting yet agreeing with me. Which is it? You are citing almost verbatim my words. My point to you was...don't assume that people are lazy and want to be trail blazers yet without bearing that level of passion simply because they don't want to watch a video. You were essentially putting words in another individuals mouth without even bearing the weight of what may be their thoughts and reasons upon your mind. Something to consider.

In essence, I felt your words were disingenuous and rather assumptive.

It's funny that you mention burdens. Time and time again, I am responsible for bearing the weight of the parties lives upon my shoulders as a Tank. Yet the above is the very cited attitude is what leads to many dying despite my having looked at things and prepared before diving in. Assumptions. Or a will and desire to not explain things so that I can keep people alive. Funny thing that. Tanks have an extraordinary responsibility upon their shoulders. More than DPS ever will. Dps can screw up and no one will notice. But if the tank even slips in the slightest, it is noticed immediately. And boy do we hear about it.

It's fine to set rules and lines in Party Finder. I'm ok with that. It means if i see a party that bears an attitude I don't like, I don't join. Don't care if they need a tank, dps, healer, whatever. I don't care for an attitude of elitism. Eventually those individuals find themselves in a situation where they need someone to help but no one is there because they shut out all of the willing. Falling on their own sword is a rather amusing ideal by any standard for such...odd...desires.

But to expect that out of others in Duty Finder for one's own benefit is a pretty belligerent mindset to bear IMO. I already have to deal with parties impatience and telling me PULL PULL PULL PULL GO GO GO GO GO while another explains to me new boss fights, despite my having watched videos, because, oh...I don't know, I want to make sure that the only face that gets eaten is MINE and not someone elses. And sure enough, I regularly come across things videos do not mention via those players.

To enforce your view, to desire to impress your view upon ANYONE for an individual's own selfish desires is inherently wrong. Yes, I understand that we are playing with other players. But so are you, and the door swings both ways.

As I said. Let DF be the line of demarcation. For those who wish to hold their lofty throne on high and seek out specifics, and be elite, they can set up in party finder. Just like other groups who wish to teach people as i have seen shouted in Mor Dhona for EX primals practice runs can be as well.

But I will always hold the opinion that anyone outright demanding and expecting another to do as they wish, should consider very carefully how oppressive that line of thought is. Because it is.

[Lilysparkle]

[1]Watch a video and/or read guides before going through it.

Even an end-game entry dungeon like Wanderer's Palace could prove fatal in the face of players who doesnt know what to do

Be more aware, the time you spent learning can save you the frustration of going over and over a run.

[2]You are now eligible for it but that doesnt mean you are "good to go"

Your gears play a crucial part in terms of clearing a run so if you think/know that your barely getting that requirement, use your time more wisely by running more appropriate dungeons so you'll be more prepared for the higher ones.

In summary
-Its better to be overgeared than be undergeared
-Having to know what your getting yourself into is better than going in blindly

Hopefully this post raises awareness so all players can have an enjoyable and more successful runs

Will you encourage ppl to watch a video of Turn 6 when it first arrives? ;D

[Dracosavarian]

Stuff!

Heh, you are being rather assumptive of me. Nice to see.

Point and to wit: I am not citing my own thoughts save one vein. I have an issue with others EXPECTING people to do as they wish. Which is what the OP seems to imply. You went on a tangent from my original point to you about assuming others thoughts for them.

Consider that, please. Because you are still doing it with me, when I have not openly stated how I handle things myself save videos don't cover everything, and that I like to ask players after having watched videos. You are assuming, once again, my thoughts and actions for me.

When all I am saying is that I disagree with others flat out thinking that before they can even set foot into something in DF, they have to read XXXXXX manuals and watch 25 instructional videos on how to tackle a dungeon and it's bosses.

[Cons]

1st run in WP - I type in "Im new here" and the tank instantly leaves - we then sit and wait for another tank.

1st run in Ultimate Weapon - We wipe on the first attempt - group disbands, this was after a 25 min wait to have the party form and even get to attempt it.

Ive seen people flame members of the party for a single mistake that DIDN'T involve the person being dead, to me that is ridiculous.
____________________________

I use DF mostly as PF have comments like "no noobs" - "know the tactics or get kicked" - and other condescending titles.

If I could implement any feature in FFXIV it would be to tick a box so that I don't party with ANYONE who votes abandon after a single wipe, if being dead wastes time, so does a quick abandon.

I understand people getting frustrated but you are actually adding unnecessary pressure to players, and we all know that extra pressure doesn't always result in a good outcome

[Dracosavarian]

Food for thought:

Those who say "Watch this Video, be fully prepared! "

I've done so. We've still wiped. Why? Because no matter how "Prepared" you think are and can be by watching a simple video, or even a series of them...there is no such thing as "Fully Prepared". Wholly forewarned and aware? Yes. Fully prepared? No. Because that seems to imply no wipes will happen and everything will go perfect.

Such is not the case. And I've had people lose their minds despite being "Fully Prepared" when something goes wrong and everyone dies.


It's a game. There are far more important things in life to get stressed over, for sure, than this.

[odie]

All i'm getting out of this is "Lets defeat the social purpose of an MMO by forcing everyone to be self sufficient."

If Square-Enix intended for everyone to do research, they'd A. Provide this informative content online themselves, or B. give everyone guide books to complete it. No, they are fully expecting us experienced people to help those that are still working through the content. You may bitch and complain that this game is catering to casuals, but that's their intent. If that bothers you, then you are just taking too long to figure out this game isn't designed for YOU.

[Eidolon]

Opinions that differ from my own on the internets! RAWR!

It won't go perfectly, but people will be aware and prepared for the mechanic, and their learning of the content will be naturally expediated. When someone says "I'm new, but I've watched the video." I know they might not instantly dodge. Hell, my very first Twister, I took the hit and learned it that way. But I knew what to expect, I knew how to move, and once I saw and understood it, I was ready for it on the second try and easily cleared it. Same with divebombs - I wasn't in position fast enough and took a hit by myself. Second time and thereafter, I've always been ready.

But without the video, I wonder how much longer it would've taken me to get used to it, to be prepared for it, to know it was coming and how to move. I think that's what people are trying to cut out - that amount of 'build up' so they can get to the clear faster.

[Dracosavarian]

It won't go perfectly, but people will be aware and prepared for the mechanic, and their learning of the content will be naturally expediated. When someone says "I'm new, but I've watched the video." I know they might not instantly dodge. Hell, my very first Twister, I took the hit and learned it that way. But I knew what to expect, I knew how to move, and once I saw and understood it, I was ready for it on the second try and easily cleared it. Same with divebombs - I wasn't in position fast enough and took a hit by myself. Second time and thereafter, I've always been ready.

But without the video, I wonder how much longer it would've taken me to get used to it, to be prepared for it,to know it was coming and how to move. I think that's what people are trying to cut out - that amount of 'build up' so they can get to the clear faster.

And that's understandable. But the same thing can be done if a tank like me is willing to explain the fight, in full, to those who are new, as I have done with those on their first time coming into Garuda.

To me the whole thing boils down to a fact that a whole lot of people just don't want to be social. Nor helpful. Just that they desire instant gratification and to hit that "I WIN" button almost immediately.

I've gone into dungeons and have had others explain to me the boss without ever watching a video for a few of them, and I did just fine. We killed the boss, I tanked it well enough for us to win, and we proceeded onwards.

Doors swing both ways. And a little kindness gives a lot of mileage.

[Kuwagami]

Take a look at it seriously...


as said by odie, if a video was needed before any tryings, SE would give us a dev swift completion of every new content, ruining both the fun of new things AND the challenge of said things.

An other thing that is really fun to notice about all the "experience only, 1 death = kick", il85+ ex runs or stuff... These are nearly all created by people who got carried though them once, and then as they don't have a group and/or fail terribly at it with other people just want to get carried again for their weekly farm.

Most successful EX group I know are all under il80, and do it perfectly fine. They never watched any videos of it, nor were the 1st to kill it. They just went in and tried.

People who aren't ready to put an effort don't deserve to clear top content, be they lazy people who just want to be carried or people watching a video and claiming they are pro and know all phases of XX fight.

concrete experience : last week we carried a tank through T1-4, claiming he knew all the fights (he got the mapping at every turn, so yeah he knew them well.. anyway). He didn't want any advice, went through, got both cads and tried to live. Yeah, it seems that enrage cad is the reference now. T2, enrage mode, nothing to say (2 tank/3 heal, couldn't possibly go wrong even with a derping tank). and then T4.. I did not think we could wipe on P2. though he had watched the vids. He just had no clue of where the soldiers pop. We wiped at every new phase after that, even though we took the time to describe it phase by phase and showing positions before entering.

this week, pugging 2 dps : one had absolutely no clue about what was going on (only coil experience was a dbag getting him up to T4, and then FC memebers on teamspeak telling what to do in real time. He knew nothing). In total through T1-4, he died 3 times :
1) at caduceus, tail wipe got him while he was combo'ing. He was raised and never died again, even doing a great job baiting the tail.
2) on the firestar at 3rd mini boss. very hard to dodge with no experience.
3) on T4, he had no clue of what to kill first so on last phase the dps split too much and we wiped. 2nd try was a perfect and he even kited the dread when MT dropped due to a crit.




TLDR : you can watch tons of videos and still be as bad as you were before. You'll just have a global idea of why you died instead of trying to learn why. That makes maybe 30 seconds of reflexion/discussion. On the other hand, you can just be willing to learn and make great progress even going blindly. You do NOT need videos/guides to do content. All you need is the will to learn.

[Dracosavarian]

Words of pure awesomeness

This has been pretty much my experience. Videos are not some magical panacea, and they are a poor substitute for a willingness to learn and actual experience.