Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[Hitome]

When you were DF-ing Titan HM, how long was it when teams were starting to first clear Titan HM? If you were DF-ing that much, say 1 week in after the first few teams were clearing Titan HM. That might explain your abysmal clear rates. It's definitely much better on my server however. Don't be expecting everyone to magically know the fight. This game is aimed at casuals after all. Not everyone rushes in 1 week in of a new content to clear it.

Through late September, the month of November, and December leading up to the patch.

This was hardly new content. Half of these attempts were done after I had 6 relics on Hitome.

I just got my first Titan EM and Ifrit EM clears last week, 4 weeks after my first Garuda EM clear. And it was done through Duty Finder. With pugs. By your logic, that might be impossible, no? I mean you seem to get trolls, and uncooperative players all around. Then again, it might be because I'm queueing with Japanese players. I see you are on an American server.

Trolling attempts were not taken into account. By definition, a trolling attempt will not be successful.

No mention of people being uncooperative either.

I queued (and still queue) in all regions. I was put in quite a few JP and EU parties. I was also able to speak with the Japanese players. Most of the EU players spoke English so the language barrier wasn't really there.

Yes, I go into classes knowing nothing, and walking away with something. It would be foolish for me to be knowing something I'm expected to know by the 13th week of class, on a discussion on the 1st week of class. Baby steps.

You know you are covering chapter 3 next week. A good student will read chapter 3 (maybe even skimming over it) before going to lecture. A bad student will do nothing.

The good student will always be more prepared and, overall, be a better student.

Yes, I go into an interview with a company, knowing what their company is about at a basic level, besides my own level of skill. I do not expect to know their sales figures, profit margins, employee names, head of departments, etc.

No need to know complex statistics about a company before you interview with them. Researching what a company does beforehand, though, is a wise idea.

People here seem to want other people to know all those little details. They expect people to be born knowing these stuff. And when they don't, they flame them for being bad.

Not sure where I've seen this requested in this thread at all. All anyone is saying is watch a video before you come to a fight. You don't have to study the video (though many of us do): you just need to look at what goes on and see what you can absorb.

If people want to experience the content, I am up for it. I also highly support watching videos or reading guides, but only to supplement what you have already experienced. I don't support being forced to watch videos or read guides without having actually experienced it. I would like people to also speak up if they are new. Not hide it or attempt to wing it. But that's a different case altogether.

No one is forcing you to watch a video just like no one is forcing you to read chapter 3 ahead of time.

A good player will watch a video. A good student will read the chapter in advance before discussing it in class.

Mediocre players/students will do nothing to prepare and it definitely shows.

Being a new player is a negative thing right now. If you announce this in the wrong crowd, you're gone. Why would someone do that? How do you blend in, then? Do some research beforehand so, even if you are new, you still have a vague idea and don't look completely clueless.

"Oh...those DPS all stacked up near Ifrit before the eruptions went off so that they could fill only half of the arena with eruptions instead of having a randomized mess."

Know what a new DPS player does? He goes in and tries to attempt Ifrit like he had in the past on HM and easy: sitting anywhere he wishes on the flank/rear of Ifrit. Know what happens when howl goes off and searing wind is placed on the healer, signaling the start of the eruptions? He has the potential to stick an eruption on the MT, OT, or even healer (while being hit by searing wind during his attempt to dodge his own self-placed eruption).

I apologize if I seem argumentative. There is no argument here: just facts. People on the OF seem to be afraid of the truth because it just might insinuate that they aren't as good as they thought they were. Surprise: that's exactly the case.




Trying to justify your need to waste other players' time won't really fly. An adult realizes when his or her actions affect other people and accommodates. A child doesn't necessarily care about his or her actions affecting other people as long as they are happy themselves.

None of this was aimed specifically at you, juniglee. These are simply the attitudes in this thread that have been observed.

[OPneedNerfs]

snip

Just FYI, JP players use PF for first timers and to practice. Their DFs are highly populated with experienced players.

The same reason why they always ask for "JP only" in party finder. It's not that they're xenophobic, but they require people to be able to communicate in their PRACTICE parties.

Also the same reason why in DF you rarely see JP players typing out lines and lines of strategies yet everyone manages to do what is expected of them.

EN servers sadly have a completely opposite mindset in which DF is a place to fail. This causes their playerbase to become more fragmented because the newbies themselves are pushing the more experienced people away to be in their own servers with their own groups.

JP players have got it right in the sense that with pre-formed parties, it's for practice. Why else would there be no penalty for leaving in a full pre-formed party whereas there is one if you went in without a full party? Isn't it better to practice in a fully pre-formed group where people have similar mindset and won't leave halfway through than to go through DF parties where people keep dropping?

I'm also playing in tonberry and trust me, doing it their way when I first tried for the EMs did wonders for me. Clearing all Titan and Ifrit EM through DF in 1 day after simply forming a practice party in PF for both primals and getting a feel for it as a tank. I reckon if I was playing in EN servers' DF, it would've been impossible for me to get a party competent enough through the DF that allowed me to clear both EMs in 1 day.

The more you shun good players from the DF, the harder it is for the majority of players to clear harder content through DF.

[juniglee]

snip

I understand. I've never said totally don't do it at all either. I am the sort of student who learns by going to class not knowing anything, and forming my own understand of how it works. Such is the education system in my home country. I was raised not needing to know anything, and going in and learning things, and coming out on top. I don't understand much if I were to read the topic before actually going into the class, but I understand so much more once it's actually explained to me. Similarly, I don't think it's a bad idea to watch a video/read a guide, and at least give yourself some sort of idea. But the community here seems to expect that people have studied said videos/guides extensively, and are able to clear it. Such is the level of patience we people here seem to have.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think being lazy is good either. I say there's a difference between being new, and being incompetent. A new player wanting to go in blind, I don't mind. I explain the ropes, as long as they are willing to listen, I give them that. But if you have failed multiple times, and still refuse to listen to me, that's where I draw the line. In that sense, it's like two people going in a class knowing nothing, but one student attentively listens and take notes, and the other just sleeps in class.

I have always fought for the welfare of newer players, and people on the OF seems to clump new and incompetent together, because they don't have time to waste on people. I didn't think people could be so self-centred, that they'd just step on others, at the expense of their welfare. I suppose that's how it works in life too. But this is a video game, not life.

I once read about how being a newcomer in a knitting community, you'd be welcomed with open arms, and taught the way of the needle. Video gamers simply berate others for being new, and turn them off. And slowly it forms a vicious cycle, the community begins to be filled by more toxic players, and new players aren't coming in as much.

snip

As you have stated, it's a mentality problem. I find JP players are more tolerant to newcomers, and inexperienced players. If you make the same mistakes over and over again, and show no sign or drive to improve, they'd get angry too, and they have every right to!

I'd rather take my chances DF-ing with Japanese players, even though I speak really minimal Japanese, than to join a PF "exp clear onry" party, because said PF parties usually place absurd expectations on their party members. And a lot of the time, these people are taking their chances to wing it too.

[Doo]

The more you shun good players from the DF, the harder it is for the majority of players to clear harder content through DF.

Yeah I have no idea how DF became a place for only if you're a newbie. I always thought it was meant for convenience of setting up a group and getting content done. What DF has become now is a just a one or two attempt party because players lose hope after seeing how bad runs go.

[Dracosavarian]

My Happy videos confuses me as well but there are some guides/videos that does a better job at explaining things. Like I was able to OT tank Garuda Ext in duty finder and won thanks to having watched a vid of positioning prior. It's almost a must for a tank because if we don't know positioning, we look extremely silly and the group disbands/rage quits fast.

Dungeons and other easy content I have no issues with new players trying to learn without any knowledge of it before hand and I have no issues explaining since it's all simple tank and spank. For Extreme primals and harder content, it's almost a must to what you're getting yourself into.

But it doesn't cover everything. An individual can watch videos all day until the cows come home to use a turn of phrase. However, it still doesn't compare to getting the actual experience in the game itself. Watch all you like. But things don't truly "Click" until you actually do it.

[Hitome]

I understand. I've never said totally don't do it at all either. I am the sort of student who learns by going to class not knowing anything, and forming my own understand of how it works.

So am I. But that is because I am a lazy person.

When I do read chapters before going to class, the difference is very clear to me. I am able to understand what the professor is saying and form my own questions opposed to just thinking about what is told to me and trying to grasp the concept that is fresh in my brain.

We could have a talk about why my grades don't affect anyone but myself (or that they actually do)...but I'd rather not.

Here's my attitude: if I make As in advanced engineering courses with my current habits, why would I change those habits if I can't receive a higher grade?

Logic: Because a grade is just a grade: you can always seek to become a better person (and SHOULD) to improve.

I am just not that interested in the material to immerse myself that deeply in it. I don't think this is analogous to the game.



My attitude in FF14: Why should I need to watch a video? Every encounter I've been involved with I've overcome. I've done it all and have cleared most content faster than ~97% of my server and ~95% of the general population.

Logic: You can (and should) always seek to be a better player. You were not server first. You were not world first. If you tried harder, you might could be that way. You are skilled as a player but not the most skilled. World first groups may contain the most skilled player of a certain job but certainly not all of the players in that group are the top echelon of that job.

Corollary: There is no way for a progression oriented player to become better besides practice since most of the fights do not have strategies attached to them during the time that you do them in (aka: first few days of a new patch). Furthermore, you are not the only thing holding you back: there are 7 other players influencing your status in most cases.


In this way, progression oriented players are the ones who formulate the strategies. If we were to use school as an analogy, progression oriented players would be the ones who lay down the rules and laws as observed (and tested) by them while students are the ones who study those rules and laws.


Conclusion: Those who knowingly have access to a breadth of knowledge yet refuse to use it seek only to emulate those who came before them yet without the same passion and desire.

I have always fought for the welfare of newer players, and people on the OF seems to clump new and incompetent together, because they don't have time to waste on people. I didn't think people could be so self-centred, that they'd just step on others, at the expense of their welfare. I suppose that's how it works in life too. But this is a video game, not life.

In my observation, the OF tends to be very friendly to new players yet encourages bad practices (like the one being discussed in this topic). You can go to just about any other forum and make a topic like this. If you advocate unpreparedness, you will most likely be shunned anywhere but here. For some reason, the OF enables bad players by continuing to favor emotional reasoning rather than logical reasoning. Coddling, if you will.

I once read about how being a newcomer in a knitting community, you'd be welcomed with open arms, and taught the way of the needle. Video gamers simply berate others for being new, and turn them off. And slowly it forms a vicious cycle, the community begins to be filled by more toxic players, and new players aren't coming in as much.

This is due to anonymity and age groups more than anything, I would speculate.

[Doo]

But it doesn't cover everything.

It doesn't. It's just a great tool to help players become better gamers and imo a good amount of them could benefit from it. Like watching Day 9 tv.

[Dracosavarian]

Conclusion: Those who knowingly have access to a breadth of knowledge yet refuse to use it seek only to emulate those who came before them yet without the same passion and desire.

I would argue this is an incorrect statement. Furthermore, it's rather presumptive of any given individual's mindset based solely on your own thought process. And assumptions.

An individual could have an even greater passion and desire than those whom you assume are the forgers of the path. Those who have gone before them. However, an individual might view videos akin to cheating, and seek to challenge their own skills, adaptive learning processes on the fly, and ability to suddenly find themselves in a situation that is dire and come out on top.

In other words. Some people like to go it on their own, forge their own path, and blaze their own destiny and memories. Without the spoilers of a video ruining what could be memorable moments for them. Whether it be good or bad. Some folks just do better when forged in the heat of the fire rather then being molded in the stale air of a classroom.


I feel it is wholly disingenuous to castigate those individuals as many seem wont to do. Some of us just want to go in and learn directly, rather then watch a video that won't be of much help anyways. (Has happened a ton of times to me)

Some may just not want their first experience tainted by what they deem spoilers etc. (many videos spoil CS)

Reasons vary. But it is not a reason to grab the pitch and torches and burn someone at the stake as many have done. Like the individual said above me. DF is for practice. Serious runs? Party Finder. Let that be the line of demarcation.

[Dracosavarian]

It doesn't. It's just a great tool to help players become better gamers and imo a good amount of them could benefit from it. Like watching Day 9 tv.

But it in no way should be required.

Which is what many seem to wish to enforce upon others. Because hey, reasons of selfishness and impatience.


I take things from the view of Paladin. I'm here to help people. That includes learning. Don't want to watch a video? Fine. Want to watch the CS? Sure, no problem. Need help figuring out the fight? Ok, glad to help!

It's when I deal with players who say nothing or do not take advice after the 50th death as a slight exaggeration that my own personal patience wears thin. Because it's obvious that they just don't care.

But to enforce another's beliefs upon others simply because of their own selfish reasons is not something I will ever agree with. Which is what a lot of the animosity stems from.

[Hitome]

Stuff.

Regardless, the burden is upon those players. If they join a group (you remember we're playing with other players, right?) with this mentality where the group seeks experienced players only, they've violated the agreement upon joining.

If these players would stick to their own communities that would be fine. Most don't. Most want to try to figure things out on their own and think PF is the place to do it in when the run specifies experienced players/players with high end gear...yet this is not the place.

DF doesn't give us an option to separate ourselves from these types of players. Therefore, the best solution to a DF group is to come fully prepared. Sure, you can talk about strategy (but then you aren't really fully prepared..are you?) but that's about it. Everything else should be straight forward.

Yet this is RARELY the case in DF.

DF is the line. Too many of these players cross the line into the PF because they somehow think it will be easier for them.

BTW: something that has been neglected. Time limits are imposed in most duties. If you do your research ahead of time, you might just get an extra attempt or two in before time runs out because ample explanation was not needed in the beginning.

No one wants to enforce people to watch videos: we just think it's a good idea and any player seeking to be a well-rounded individual (whether in the real world or their FFXIV job) should strive to come as prepared as possible.

None of our reasons are selfish. In fact, it is you who is being selfish. You prioritize your needs over the needs of 7 others. Conceited and egocentric attitudes like this are why we have these discussions.

For the last time: MMORPG - Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game

You are playing with other people. Everything you do affects other people.

Coming unprepared affects people negatively. You inconvenience 7 others yet think this is OK instead of forming your own group in PF that seeks newer players.

Many of you assure me you do this...but, from my observation, this is rarely the case. Inexperienced players find their ways into 'high level gear' and 'experienced players only' groups all too frequently. You don't belong in these groups. Conclusion? You want people to hand feed you the information and be carried.

If PF was actually operating the way it was intended, this wouldn't be an issue. Temporarily solution? Set the ilevel req so high that the average player (prepared or unprepared) cannot join. In this approach, you don't really care whether someone is prepared or unprepared because they have the gear to make up for their mistakes.