Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[Shaone]

Tank made the right call. Titan HM df is nightmare enough without someone joining it without a clue.

Actually, I'd say Tank made the wrong call in queuing in DF expecting an easy win and experienced players.

[Alistaire]

True, there is that.

Seriously though, for all the people against the OP here, go make a party finder that says "I know absolutely nothing about this fight and would like to be carried" and see how many join. Take it a step further and make pf saying "learning party, btw I don't know anything at all myself about this, haven't watched videos or anything, cause I shouldn't have to", and see how many join.

And then, if some people do join, see how you do. See how long it takes you. And a good portion of that would be the time you'd be wasting of the people who do the courteous and responsible thing and look up at least a general idea of what's needed for the fight.

[Kirosuu]

True, there is that.

Seriously though, for all the people against the OP here, go make a party finder that says "I know absolutely nothing about this fight and would like to be carried" and see how many join. Take it a step further and make pf saying "learning party, btw I don't know anything at all myself about this, haven't watched videos or anything, cause I shouldn't have to", and see how many join.

And then, if some people do join, see how you do. See how long it takes you. And a good portion of that would be the time you'd be wasting of the people who do the courteous and responsible thing and look up at least a general idea of what's needed for the fight.

why must newbies use party finder and not elitist use party finder?personality problem?

[Rivienne]

True, there is that.

Seriously though, for all the people against the OP here, go make a party finder that says "I know absolutely nothing about this fight and would like to be carried" and see how many join. Take it a step further and make pf saying "learning party, btw I don't know anything at all myself about this, haven't watched videos or anything, cause I shouldn't have to", and see how many join.

And then, if some people do join, see how you do. See how long it takes you. And a good portion of that would be the time you'd be wasting of the people who do the courteous and responsible thing and look up at least a general idea of what's needed for the fight.

There is a difference between going in blind, and wanting to be carried. I know of people who form groups "don't know fight, come learn it with me.". They don't always win, but they get real practice in. And for the newer content, they fill fairly quick even.

That seems to be a huge disconnect here: just because someone wants to go in blind, doesn't mean they want to be carried. Rather, they want to learn on their own. Don't try and equate the two things.

Honestly most people I see who want to be carried ask for experienced people only, high ilevel requirement, when they themselves are significantly below the ilevel they set. Usually it is because they have watched videos and failed over and over again, and are fed up. People who want to go in blind rarely want to be carried, because that defeats the entire purpose of being able to learn yourself.

In fact I often have people who already have their relic who want to come learn Titan(or even Garuda!) HM with me, because they were carried and it feels like they cheated their way to a relic. Even sometimes people who paid to be carried.

There is a lot of satisfaction in being able to say you beat hard content on your own merits. Not because you happened to be in a group that was good enough it didn't matter if you were there.

Anyway that is all I really had to say on that: wanting to go in without research is not the same as wanting a carry, and is usually the opposite in my experience.

[Kuwagami]

P2? Are you stuck on conflags or stuck on divebombs? Divebombs are the hardest part of the encounter.

Videos will help immensely on conflag, twister/dreadknight, snake burn, and liquid hellx5/egg stage. And I mean immensely. There are quite a few YT videos out right now on tactics for divebombs. There are also widgets that take all the guess work out of it.

Divebombs are something everyone needs to pass or you will most likely fail. Go watch a video. Guarantee you that you will find people saying, "Up up up" when divebombs trigger using voice comm. or mention something when the 2nd set of divebombs are about to hit. You can use macros and cooldowns to track time between the two sets of divebombs too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOA2gm0tE64

Did you learn anything about conflags/divebombs from this? "Everyone together" for fireball/"On us", people calling out names of those who have fireball/conflag. on them, Ruin calling out short conflags., people telling you when they're conflagged, where DPS needs to increase,

Not only that but you get positioning, where she should be tanked, where virus/eye are used for mitigation from party chat, how to deal with snake debuff, when to use LB/cooldowns that people call out, etc

Just so much information in one video that wasn't even meant to be a tutorial.

The same is true for people joining exp groups with no exp: form your own group. You know they have a "new players welcome" and "until we complete our duty" check mark, right? You can also put, "We're a learning group. Come join us." in your comment. I've seen quite a few of these myself. I'm glad people are using PF this way.

I was being really sarcastic in the comment above ^^
I did watch videos, I did read guides for twintania (and twintania only, as said before). Though theoretical knowledge is garbage when you come in action.

By P2 here, I meant the fireballs/conflags. I am a tank, so there is nothing much I can do about them except dps as much as I can waiting for the switch. My entire team know the theory, we just can't make it natural yet. Not due to failing to understand though. Just hard to put all together. On the same level, we'll surely fail horribly on dives, then on snake stacks, and then on twisters. I expect horrible deaths on DK, and the 5 hells dance will most likely be the easiest part of all considering how good we are to dance in T1 and T4 until nervous breakdown comes and we wipe in gregorian songs, that is. Anyway we'll see.

Also, I DO create beginners parties, and try again and again and wipe a lot of time. It took around 5 hours of wiping to beat ultima, but we did it. Moggle is still elusive after 3 hours. Doesn't matter, we'll learn.

The point was for QQing elitist players who don't want newbs (which is understandable, don't take me wrong) to just create a static, or LS, or whatever, with which they'll be able to one-shot everything, never have a need to explain anything... These sorts of things. If you do not want to bother with new players, then assume your acts and just create your own pro-clearer groups

[Doo]

I don't know why players are so against learning.

1) The amount of bad players in end game is staggering.
2) It will improve their play and they will enjoy the game more.
3) They won't be the reason why teams fail.

I know some of you guys are leet and fast learners here but we are talking about all the average not so good players that can benefit from it. You can't go into hard fights and expect someone to explain every little detail to you. Seeing things and then reading the explanation along with hands on experience can be way more helpful.

[Mysteltain]

I'm noticing that everyone advocating that people should always watch videos for the more difficult content throw out the word "carried" whereas no one else does. Look, contrary to your popular belief, not everyone who goes into a fight without experience wants to be--or is intending to be--carried. I've joined groups where my only experience in the fight is having heard about it from others. I enter, tell the group that I'm new, and ask "Anything I as a <insert role need to be aware of?" They explain it to me in broad strokes (usually omitting something), and a minute or two later we run the fight. Should we wipe, I am rarely the first to die, despite being the least experienced. I'm not receiving special treatment from healers, nor am I purposefully keeping my DPS low--I'm playing smart. I am actively watching for patterns in the fight, paying attention to chat to see if anyone starts spamming a certain macro, keeping an eye on everyone's HP and positioning, looking for visual cues that something's about to happen, etc. If my DPS should fall because I'm not focusing on my rotations, like missing a switch to Umbral Ice and needing to Transpose or Convert, I'd rather have that than get steamrolled by Ifrit and have 0 DPS for an extended period of time.

I'm not saying that everyone can or will be that aware, just as I'm well aware that I'm not always going to dodge or win everything the first time. What matters is a willingness to learn from your mistakes, and to be open to the good criticism of others and take their advice. As I said before, my first-timers group (formed in about 10 minutes and titled in PF, "Newcomers preferred, no experience necessary; let's figure this place out together! =D") got stuck on Caduceus. We also had turnover at two points, either because some people's FC's needed them for a run, real life issues, or they just needed a break. It never ended in shouting or insults, however, just well-wishing. For the three of us who stayed, we were consistently doing a great job, and not because we were being carried, but because we were actively finding ways to play better. When something went wrong and we didn't quite understand what happened, we asked the group. If we know we messed up, we called out our own mistakes, and told the others what we would do next time. And we did that--even the experienced players would take responsibility for their mistakes. We all communicated with one another, encouraged one another, and became a tighter group.

tl:dr, It's not an issue of people wanting to be carried: it's an issue of communication.

[IndigoHawk]

It's sad that some people only take pride in winning with overgeared and experienced players. It's also sad that people don't have enough self esteem to realize they deserve to learn new content as they play. It's not an inconvenience to game with the possibility of failure.

Gamers enjoy playing games, and take pride in making sure that everyone is having fun. Fun sometimes means trashing content on easy mode, and sometimes learning and letting others learn. Some of the most fun in MMOs are groups with positive attitudes that are failing and learning. Farming gets boring fast; researching to farm sooner is missing out on fun.

Be grateful that noobs give fresh challenge to old content. In an MMO, the challenge changes based on who you play with, which is part of what makes MMOs fun.

[Tazo]

So let me get this straight...I can join a group, and just have them explain to me everything about the fight(saves me A LOT of time), without having to watch any videos or reading any guides? That's awesome, the world is my oyster.

[Boris1988]

True, there is that.

Seriously though, for all the people against the OP here, go make a party finder that says "I know absolutely nothing about this fight and would like to be carried" and see how many join. Take it a step further and make pf saying "learning party, btw I don't know anything at all myself about this, haven't watched videos or anything, cause I shouldn't have to", and see how many join.

And then, if some people do join, see how you do. See how long it takes you. And a good portion of that would be the time you'd be wasting of the people who do the courteous and responsible thing and look up at least a general idea of what's needed for the fight.

Iv done this before with the hm dungeon and had people join within ten minutes who were also new and it was really fun. so yea it can be done