Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[Rivienne]

So instead of looking up the mechanics of the fight before starting they would rather have someone who has done that and have them explain everything (which is the same thing as doing the research yourself except you are having someone else do it for you).... This is just being lazy, plain and simple. Tell me I am wrong on this.

You are wrong. Those we are talking about (including myself by and large) also don't want to be told before the fight by someone else. Not sure why this is such a hard concept for you. If you want to go in blind, you don't want to stop and be explained the fight either.

But if you do run across someone who doesn't know the fight but does want some advice and asks, give it to them, it only takes a minute even for complicate fights. And then dive in.

If for whatever reason you are unwilling to do so, please just leave. Save yourself and them the frustration. Better yet, don't join the party in the first place, and avoid DF since you cannot guarantee who you will get. (And no amount of complaining on forums is going to change this)

Every learning party I have been in, a person who has not looked up the fight at all is VERY open to have someone else chew it for them and feed it to them.

Why have you ever been in a learning party if you don't approve of them?

It takes a lot more than 1min to explain any of the Primals ex, Ultima HM, Coil. This is endgame/raid as the title of the thread.

It really doesn't. You can easily explain Ultima in about 1 minute. If you can't, you probably are over-complicating it for someone who is new anyway and they won't remember anything important. The extremes, also fairly easy to explain, though harder to do (though once you get them down they are in some ways easier than HM).

You don't want shit explained to you and you don't want to research anything for yourself? Do the content the first week or so when it is released.

Not everyone started the game at the same time, or plays at the same pace, and they shouldn't be forced out of experiencing content because you think "it is lazy".

They should be able to learn in their preferred method, at their preferred pace, so long as others are also willing. (And there always are despite what your own personal experience may be).

You can phrase it anyway you want, but it is pure laziness, plain and simple.

It is pure laziness, to spend hours learning content through trial and error with other people who also want to learn it the same way? Really? I don't understand this mentality. In my mind it is pure laziness to have someone else hand feed you the solution to a puzzle so you don't have to spend time on it yourself. As I said. If you don't want to be part of such a group. Do Not Join. Problem solved. There is clearly a huge mindset difference. Honestly. They don't want you anymore then you want them. Different play styles. Neither should be forcing themselves on the other.

Edit: wait...do you even have a lv50 character and do you do endgame? If not..wtf are you even doing in this thread?

I have more than one character at endgame. I choose to leave the one I never touch as my face on the forum because it was my first not because it is my "main". Not that it is relevant.

[Tazo]

snip

I don't know a single person that would stay in a party where there is someone that refuses to learn the fight(have it explained) and just wants to learn from mistakes. This is beyond ridiculous. Personally I have never meet anyone who says they don't want the fight explained and/or researched themselves. Every learning party I have been in, a person who has not looked up the fight at all is VERY open to have someone else chew it for them and feed it to them.

It takes a lot more than 1min to explain any of the Primals ex, Ultima HM, Coil. This is endgame/raid as the title of the thread.

You don't want shit explained to you and you don't want to research anything for yourself? Do the content the first week or so when it is released.

You can phrase it anyway you want, but it is pure laziness, plain and simple.

Edit: wait...do you even have a lv50 character and do you do endgame? If not..wtf are you even doing in this thread?

[Doo]

Or, or... you could put 'training pt' and watch it fill up fairly quickly. Gotta love how people equate not watching a video to 'getting carried'.

Yeah it's not really carryable Primal extremes and harder content. It would be called more of being a dead weight.

[ulti_19]

True, there is that.

Seriously though, for all the people against the OP here, go make a party finder that says "I know absolutely nothing about this fight and would like to be carried" and see how many join. Take it a step further and make pf saying "learning party, btw I don't know anything at all myself about this, haven't watched videos or anything, cause I shouldn't have to", and see how many join.

You realize that watching content before actually doing it is being carried. You're being baby fed all the answers before attempting to actually have any skill as a gamer and trying to figure out how to play your class best against said dungeon or boss. Sounds like the same type of people who use strategy guides to beat games, which to me is a giant no no because it wouldn't feel like I beat it but rather someone showed me how to beat it, at least for me. Even if this is a community game, both sides, pro watchers and first time trier people lol, should be courteous of eachother and how they want to play. Just use party finder, that was suggested tons of times anyways, you can find similar minded people. I personally don't care if we have people in our party who are doing something for the first time and didn't watch a video, it's fun to see how they play, if they die, who the fu** cares, that's what happens in a video game. Same as if there's a team all comprised of people who have made it through, it's nice to get through the dungeon, but eventually even the person who hasn't 'researched' the dungeon will make it through, if they can't chances are the videos won't do them anything anyways. You're not 'pro', you're not doing any justice to yourself by spoiling all the content, you're not a better gamer because you research prior fights and mimic someone else' player style, and it should not be a common courtesy to watch end game content or dungeons before trying it yourself.

[ispano]

-snip-

Then I guess the entirety of humanity has been baby fed, right? We learn from our predecessors, you are perfectly within your right to refuse to do so, but that's typically frowned upon. In a game or otherwise.

And like at least one other has stated, in my experience the ones who TRULY want to go in blind, are not as common as the ones who don't want to research themselves.

[Doo]

I don't know why players are so against learning.

1) The amount of bad players in end game is staggering.
2) It will improve their play and they will enjoy the game more.
3) They won't be the reason why teams fail.

I know some of you guys are leet and fast learners here but we are talking about all the average not so good players that can benefit from it. You can't go into hard fights and expect someone to explain every little detail to you. Seeing things and then reading the explanation along with hands on experience can be way more helpful.

[Mysteltain]

I'm noticing that everyone advocating that people should always watch videos for the more difficult content throw out the word "carried" whereas no one else does. Look, contrary to your popular belief, not everyone who goes into a fight without experience wants to be--or is intending to be--carried. I've joined groups where my only experience in the fight is having heard about it from others. I enter, tell the group that I'm new, and ask "Anything I as a <insert role need to be aware of?" They explain it to me in broad strokes (usually omitting something), and a minute or two later we run the fight. Should we wipe, I am rarely the first to die, despite being the least experienced. I'm not receiving special treatment from healers, nor am I purposefully keeping my DPS low--I'm playing smart. I am actively watching for patterns in the fight, paying attention to chat to see if anyone starts spamming a certain macro, keeping an eye on everyone's HP and positioning, looking for visual cues that something's about to happen, etc. If my DPS should fall because I'm not focusing on my rotations, like missing a switch to Umbral Ice and needing to Transpose or Convert, I'd rather have that than get steamrolled by Ifrit and have 0 DPS for an extended period of time.

I'm not saying that everyone can or will be that aware, just as I'm well aware that I'm not always going to dodge or win everything the first time. What matters is a willingness to learn from your mistakes, and to be open to the good criticism of others and take their advice. As I said before, my first-timers group (formed in about 10 minutes and titled in PF, "Newcomers preferred, no experience necessary; let's figure this place out together! =D") got stuck on Caduceus. We also had turnover at two points, either because some people's FC's needed them for a run, real life issues, or they just needed a break. It never ended in shouting or insults, however, just well-wishing. For the three of us who stayed, we were consistently doing a great job, and not because we were being carried, but because we were actively finding ways to play better. When something went wrong and we didn't quite understand what happened, we asked the group. If we know we messed up, we called out our own mistakes, and told the others what we would do next time. And we did that--even the experienced players would take responsibility for their mistakes. We all communicated with one another, encouraged one another, and became a tighter group.

tl:dr, It's not an issue of people wanting to be carried: it's an issue of communication.

[IndigoHawk]

It's sad that some people only take pride in winning with overgeared and experienced players. It's also sad that people don't have enough self esteem to realize they deserve to learn new content as they play. It's not an inconvenience to game with the possibility of failure.

Gamers enjoy playing games, and take pride in making sure that everyone is having fun. Fun sometimes means trashing content on easy mode, and sometimes learning and letting others learn. Some of the most fun in MMOs are groups with positive attitudes that are failing and learning. Farming gets boring fast; researching to farm sooner is missing out on fun.

Be grateful that noobs give fresh challenge to old content. In an MMO, the challenge changes based on who you play with, which is part of what makes MMOs fun.

[Tazo]

So let me get this straight...I can join a group, and just have them explain to me everything about the fight(saves me A LOT of time), without having to watch any videos or reading any guides? That's awesome, the world is my oyster.

[Edellis]

I like to be surprised by what im playing. I don't play the game to help you beat it faster, i play it to enjoy it.

If you are too impatient to communicate and explain the dungeon to players, here's what you can do:

1) PF finder
2) Absurdly high ilvl requirement
3) State it in the comments


Otherwise, jump off the high horse.