Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

[Cons]

It seems the only way to die alongside your party is to be the FIRST to try the content, so everyone is equal and struggle together.

So sorry to all the people on the 'come-up', you got there too late, should have got your gear and levels much quicker, apparently.

B/S

Ive died first and also been the last Char standing, Ive killed myself by rezzing people to keep therm involved in the battle, I actually smile at dead epople on the ground, nobody wants to die.

People have said you should watch a vid to learn Titan/Garuda HM - I say, give it a good 5 runs, if you cant get the pattern, then maybe watch a vid, each attempt will probably be 10 mins or so.

If you dont have the time to die alongside your team, find a new game or adjust your attitude and help where you can, we all die, you too Elitist's.

[Kirosuu]

the more i read this thread,common sense is not common at all and often mistake with dbag/elitist

[Hitome]

I'm fine with people not watching videos for any of the dungeons, up to Pharos Sirius and Labyrinth of the Ancients. If I am experienced enough compared to the rest of the party, even for primals or Coil, I'd take some time aside and explain stuff to them. Not clearing after 10 or 15 attempts will get to me as well. But under 10 attempts, I am willing to teach people who are willing to learn the fight.

Call me stupid for helping a DF party learn Siren by wiping 70 minutes at it, and still eventually failing the duty. Sure I got frustrated a few times. But in the end, I hoped that I at least helped these people to be more familiar with the fight. And that's all I really aim for. I feel that I have a duty to the help improve the community in any way I can, which is why I did not just up and leave after 2 wipes. It would have been all the more satisfying had we actually cleared it.

Everyone here just goes on and on about how bad players are - have you actually done anything to improve this situation at all? Shunning new players for "not watching videos", sure doesn't help. Not everyone learns by watching videos, I am the sort who learns by hands-on experience. Funny how people complain about bad players, but not helping to actually help those bad players become good players. It's like teachers on the first day of school complaining why their students did not finish reading the entire textbook before the first day of class.

No I haven't done anything.

Except sat in DF HM Titan pre 2.1 for hours upon hours helping new players to the fight. I didn't care what kind of gear they had, what prior experience they had, or anything else. I had no expectations: it was Titan HM in a DF group. I did not attempt to teach the new players: just let them experience it for the first time. Know how many fights I won prior to 2.1 in DF? Three. Three out of 108 fights.

Now, if the players in those 111 groups had taken the time to do their research ahead of time, come prepared to the fight with the appropriate food and gear, and asked for advice if they were new, I imagine the success rate would be higher than ~2.8%. Post 2.1, the success rate is perhaps 10-15% due to the mandatory ilevel. This is basically saying, "OK guys: this is the minimum level of gear you should have before entering this. If you're very good at this game, this is all you will ever need."

What it is also saying is, "If you wipe consistently with this ilevel, you probably shouldn't be here and should be gearing up."

Yes, not everyone learns by videos. I assume many were able to get a little bit of experience in all of those fights even after dying so much. However, as you can see by the success rate, doing your research is probably a wise idea.

I assume many of those players in the failed DF Titan HM groups are some of the ones posting in this thread. There really is no excuse you can give that will cover up your laziness.

When you wander into our PF/shout groups, at least you won't need to know the reason why you were booted. You can simply blame yourself for being lazy and unprepared.




Many of your reactions to doing research on a fight beforehand speak about your actions in the real world. Are you also an irresponsible student who does not read the chapter(s) before going to class to discuss them? Are you an irresponsible adult who doesn't do any research on a company before an interview with that company? My guess would be yes.

[juniglee]

No I haven't done anything.

Except sat in DF HM Titan pre 2.1 for hours upon hours helping new players to the fight. I didn't care what kind of gear they had, what prior experience they had, or anything else. I had no expectations: it was Titan HM in a DF group. Know how many fights I won prior to 2.1 in DF? Three. Three out of 108 fights.

Now, if the players in those 111 groups had taken the time to do their research ahead of time, come prepared to the fight with the appropriate food and gear, and asked for advice if they were new, I imagine the success rate would be higher than ~2.8%. Post 2.1, the success rate is perhaps 10-15% due to the mandatory ilevel. This is basically saying, "OK guys: this is the minimum level of gear you should have before entering this. If you're very good at this game, this is all you will ever need."

What it is also saying is, "If you wipe consistently with this ilevel, you probably shouldn't be here and should be gearing up."

Yes, not everyone learns by videos. I assume many were able to get a little bit of experience in all of those fights even after dying so much. However, as you can see by the success rate, doing your research is probably a wise idea.

I assume many of those players in the failed DF Titan HM groups are some of the ones posting in this thread. There really is no excuse you can give that will cover up your laziness.

When you wander into our PF/shout groups, at least you won't need to know the reason why you were booted. You can simply blame yourself for being lazy and unprepared. Many of your reactions to doing research on a fight beforehand speak about your actions in the real world. Are you also an irresponsible student who does not read the chapter(s) before going to class to discuss them? Are you an irresponsible adult who doesn't do any research on a company before an interview with that company? My guess would be yes.

So...let's break it down a little more.

When you were DF-ing Titan HM, how long was it when teams were starting to first clear Titan HM? If you were DF-ing that much, say 1 week in after the first few teams were clearing Titan HM. That might explain your abysmal clear rates. It's definitely much better on my server however. Don't be expecting everyone to magically know the fight. This game is aimed at casuals after all. Not everyone rushes in 1 week in of a new content to clear it.

I just got my first Titan EM and Ifrit EM clears last week, 4 weeks after my first Garuda EM clear. And it was done through Duty Finder. With pugs. By your logic, that might be impossible, no? I mean you seem to get trolls, and uncooperative players all around. Then again, it might be because I'm queueing with Japanese players. I see you are on an American server.

Yes, I go into classes knowing nothing, and walking away with something. It would be foolish for me to be knowing something I'm expected to know by the 13th week of class, on a discussion on the 1st week of class. Baby steps.

Yes, I go into an interview with a company, knowing what their company is about at a basic level, besides my own level of skill. I do not expect to know their sales figures, profit margins, employee names, head of departments, etc.

People here seem to want other people to know all those little details. They expect people to be born knowing these stuff. And when they don't, they flame them for being bad.

If people want to experience the content, I am up for it. I also highly support watching videos or reading guides, but only to supplement what you have already experienced. I don't support being forced to watch videos or read guides without having actually experienced it. I would like people to also speak up if they are new. Not hide it or attempt to wing it. But that's a different case altogether.

[Hitome]

When you were DF-ing Titan HM, how long was it when teams were starting to first clear Titan HM? If you were DF-ing that much, say 1 week in after the first few teams were clearing Titan HM. That might explain your abysmal clear rates. It's definitely much better on my server however. Don't be expecting everyone to magically know the fight. This game is aimed at casuals after all. Not everyone rushes in 1 week in of a new content to clear it.

Through late September, the month of November, and December leading up to the patch.

This was hardly new content. Half of these attempts were done after I had 6 relics on Hitome.

I just got my first Titan EM and Ifrit EM clears last week, 4 weeks after my first Garuda EM clear. And it was done through Duty Finder. With pugs. By your logic, that might be impossible, no? I mean you seem to get trolls, and uncooperative players all around. Then again, it might be because I'm queueing with Japanese players. I see you are on an American server.

Trolling attempts were not taken into account. By definition, a trolling attempt will not be successful.

No mention of people being uncooperative either.

I queued (and still queue) in all regions. I was put in quite a few JP and EU parties. I was also able to speak with the Japanese players. Most of the EU players spoke English so the language barrier wasn't really there.

Yes, I go into classes knowing nothing, and walking away with something. It would be foolish for me to be knowing something I'm expected to know by the 13th week of class, on a discussion on the 1st week of class. Baby steps.

You know you are covering chapter 3 next week. A good student will read chapter 3 (maybe even skimming over it) before going to lecture. A bad student will do nothing.

The good student will always be more prepared and, overall, be a better student.

Yes, I go into an interview with a company, knowing what their company is about at a basic level, besides my own level of skill. I do not expect to know their sales figures, profit margins, employee names, head of departments, etc.

No need to know complex statistics about a company before you interview with them. Researching what a company does beforehand, though, is a wise idea.

People here seem to want other people to know all those little details. They expect people to be born knowing these stuff. And when they don't, they flame them for being bad.

Not sure where I've seen this requested in this thread at all. All anyone is saying is watch a video before you come to a fight. You don't have to study the video (though many of us do): you just need to look at what goes on and see what you can absorb.

If people want to experience the content, I am up for it. I also highly support watching videos or reading guides, but only to supplement what you have already experienced. I don't support being forced to watch videos or read guides without having actually experienced it. I would like people to also speak up if they are new. Not hide it or attempt to wing it. But that's a different case altogether.

No one is forcing you to watch a video just like no one is forcing you to read chapter 3 ahead of time.

A good player will watch a video. A good student will read the chapter in advance before discussing it in class.

Mediocre players/students will do nothing to prepare and it definitely shows.

Being a new player is a negative thing right now. If you announce this in the wrong crowd, you're gone. Why would someone do that? How do you blend in, then? Do some research beforehand so, even if you are new, you still have a vague idea and don't look completely clueless.

"Oh...those DPS all stacked up near Ifrit before the eruptions went off so that they could fill only half of the arena with eruptions instead of having a randomized mess."

Know what a new DPS player does? He goes in and tries to attempt Ifrit like he had in the past on HM and easy: sitting anywhere he wishes on the flank/rear of Ifrit. Know what happens when howl goes off and searing wind is placed on the healer, signaling the start of the eruptions? He has the potential to stick an eruption on the MT, OT, or even healer (while being hit by searing wind during his attempt to dodge his own self-placed eruption).

I apologize if I seem argumentative. There is no argument here: just facts. People on the OF seem to be afraid of the truth because it just might insinuate that they aren't as good as they thought they were. Surprise: that's exactly the case.




Trying to justify your need to waste other players' time won't really fly. An adult realizes when his or her actions affect other people and accommodates. A child doesn't necessarily care about his or her actions affecting other people as long as they are happy themselves.

None of this was aimed specifically at you, juniglee. These are simply the attitudes in this thread that have been observed.

[juniglee]

snip

I understand. I've never said totally don't do it at all either. I am the sort of student who learns by going to class not knowing anything, and forming my own understand of how it works. Such is the education system in my home country. I was raised not needing to know anything, and going in and learning things, and coming out on top. I don't understand much if I were to read the topic before actually going into the class, but I understand so much more once it's actually explained to me. Similarly, I don't think it's a bad idea to watch a video/read a guide, and at least give yourself some sort of idea. But the community here seems to expect that people have studied said videos/guides extensively, and are able to clear it. Such is the level of patience we people here seem to have.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think being lazy is good either. I say there's a difference between being new, and being incompetent. A new player wanting to go in blind, I don't mind. I explain the ropes, as long as they are willing to listen, I give them that. But if you have failed multiple times, and still refuse to listen to me, that's where I draw the line. In that sense, it's like two people going in a class knowing nothing, but one student attentively listens and take notes, and the other just sleeps in class.

I have always fought for the welfare of newer players, and people on the OF seems to clump new and incompetent together, because they don't have time to waste on people. I didn't think people could be so self-centred, that they'd just step on others, at the expense of their welfare. I suppose that's how it works in life too. But this is a video game, not life.

I once read about how being a newcomer in a knitting community, you'd be welcomed with open arms, and taught the way of the needle. Video gamers simply berate others for being new, and turn them off. And slowly it forms a vicious cycle, the community begins to be filled by more toxic players, and new players aren't coming in as much.

snip

As you have stated, it's a mentality problem. I find JP players are more tolerant to newcomers, and inexperienced players. If you make the same mistakes over and over again, and show no sign or drive to improve, they'd get angry too, and they have every right to!

I'd rather take my chances DF-ing with Japanese players, even though I speak really minimal Japanese, than to join a PF "exp clear onry" party, because said PF parties usually place absurd expectations on their party members. And a lot of the time, these people are taking their chances to wing it too.

[Hitome]

I understand. I've never said totally don't do it at all either. I am the sort of student who learns by going to class not knowing anything, and forming my own understand of how it works.

So am I. But that is because I am a lazy person.

When I do read chapters before going to class, the difference is very clear to me. I am able to understand what the professor is saying and form my own questions opposed to just thinking about what is told to me and trying to grasp the concept that is fresh in my brain.

We could have a talk about why my grades don't affect anyone but myself (or that they actually do)...but I'd rather not.

Here's my attitude: if I make As in advanced engineering courses with my current habits, why would I change those habits if I can't receive a higher grade?

Logic: Because a grade is just a grade: you can always seek to become a better person (and SHOULD) to improve.

I am just not that interested in the material to immerse myself that deeply in it. I don't think this is analogous to the game.



My attitude in FF14: Why should I need to watch a video? Every encounter I've been involved with I've overcome. I've done it all and have cleared most content faster than ~97% of my server and ~95% of the general population.

Logic: You can (and should) always seek to be a better player. You were not server first. You were not world first. If you tried harder, you might could be that way. You are skilled as a player but not the most skilled. World first groups may contain the most skilled player of a certain job but certainly not all of the players in that group are the top echelon of that job.

Corollary: There is no way for a progression oriented player to become better besides practice since most of the fights do not have strategies attached to them during the time that you do them in (aka: first few days of a new patch). Furthermore, you are not the only thing holding you back: there are 7 other players influencing your status in most cases.


In this way, progression oriented players are the ones who formulate the strategies. If we were to use school as an analogy, progression oriented players would be the ones who lay down the rules and laws as observed (and tested) by them while students are the ones who study those rules and laws.


Conclusion: Those who knowingly have access to a breadth of knowledge yet refuse to use it seek only to emulate those who came before them yet without the same passion and desire.

I have always fought for the welfare of newer players, and people on the OF seems to clump new and incompetent together, because they don't have time to waste on people. I didn't think people could be so self-centred, that they'd just step on others, at the expense of their welfare. I suppose that's how it works in life too. But this is a video game, not life.

In my observation, the OF tends to be very friendly to new players yet encourages bad practices (like the one being discussed in this topic). You can go to just about any other forum and make a topic like this. If you advocate unpreparedness, you will most likely be shunned anywhere but here. For some reason, the OF enables bad players by continuing to favor emotional reasoning rather than logical reasoning. Coddling, if you will.

I once read about how being a newcomer in a knitting community, you'd be welcomed with open arms, and taught the way of the needle. Video gamers simply berate others for being new, and turn them off. And slowly it forms a vicious cycle, the community begins to be filled by more toxic players, and new players aren't coming in as much.

This is due to anonymity and age groups more than anything, I would speculate.

[OPneedNerfs]

snip

Just FYI, JP players use PF for first timers and to practice. Their DFs are highly populated with experienced players.

The same reason why they always ask for "JP only" in party finder. It's not that they're xenophobic, but they require people to be able to communicate in their PRACTICE parties.

Also the same reason why in DF you rarely see JP players typing out lines and lines of strategies yet everyone manages to do what is expected of them.

EN servers sadly have a completely opposite mindset in which DF is a place to fail. This causes their playerbase to become more fragmented because the newbies themselves are pushing the more experienced people away to be in their own servers with their own groups.

JP players have got it right in the sense that with pre-formed parties, it's for practice. Why else would there be no penalty for leaving in a full pre-formed party whereas there is one if you went in without a full party? Isn't it better to practice in a fully pre-formed group where people have similar mindset and won't leave halfway through than to go through DF parties where people keep dropping?

I'm also playing in tonberry and trust me, doing it their way when I first tried for the EMs did wonders for me. Clearing all Titan and Ifrit EM through DF in 1 day after simply forming a practice party in PF for both primals and getting a feel for it as a tank. I reckon if I was playing in EN servers' DF, it would've been impossible for me to get a party competent enough through the DF that allowed me to clear both EMs in 1 day.

The more you shun good players from the DF, the harder it is for the majority of players to clear harder content through DF.

[Doo]

The more you shun good players from the DF, the harder it is for the majority of players to clear harder content through DF.

Yeah I have no idea how DF became a place for only if you're a newbie. I always thought it was meant for convenience of setting up a group and getting content done. What DF has become now is a just a one or two attempt party because players lose hope after seeing how bad runs go.

[Goodberry]

Know how many fights I won prior to 2.1 in DF? Three. Three out of 108 fights.

The only conclusion I drew from your long post is that you won 3 out of 108 fights. You were in all of those 105 losses, and you blame everybody except yourself. Usual MMO game attitude: feeling a special snowflake surrounded by "bads". :P

Many of your reactions to doing research on a fight beforehand speak about your actions in the real world. Are you also an irresponsible student who does not read the chapter(s) before going to class to discuss them? Are you an irresponsible adult who doesn't do any research on a company before an interview with that company? My guess would be yes.

Strange, in my (and many other people's) experience people who obsess over a game and dedicate lots of time to it tend not to be the ones who do best at school or at work. Speaking of interviews, I don't advise anybody to try: "I research boss fights really well." Most examiners will be unimpressed. :P