People need to speak up more for Alchemist buff.

[Crevox]

Actually we are right on target with the discussion. You are arguing for potions by saying there is a need because people are wiping in encounters all the time. My counter to that is that it's not because they aren't using potions but because they've not reacted accordingly in a heavily scripted fight.

Potion usefulness is not required to complete content. People will not invest time and money in something that isn't required to complete content.

And yet people invest time and money in gear AND food.

People invest money in anything that they can see as a tangible benefit to their character's ability to perform in a group scenario. They simply don't see potions as worth it.

[Mikara]

The ultimate counter argument

I've given you plenty of counter argument, you have chosen to ignore it by spouting the same potion chugging nonsense that you have been since you first entered the thread. I have never, nor will I ever see a tank "use a STR mega-potion to get my hate by using Shield Oath" or a healer "use a INT mega-potion to apply DoTs to turn a fight around". So I ask you, what is your actual counter point to my counter argument that you are clearly making stuff up to pretend that potions are not as awful as they are? Please enlighten me, I would love to tell my Coil group, hey, by the way, if we use XXX potion in this fight, we can shave 30-45 seconds off this fight.

People invest money in anything that they can see as a tangible benefit to their character's ability to perform in a group scenario. They simply don't see potions as worth it.

Finally, you say something to agree with what everyone has been saying in this thread.

[Crevox]

I've given you plenty of counter argument, you have chosen to ignore it by spouting the same potion chugging nonsense that you have been since you first entered the thread. I have never, nor will I ever see a tank "use a STR mega-potion to get my hate by using Shield Oath" or a healer "use a INT mega-potion to apply DoTs to turn a fight around". So I ask you, what is your actual counter point to my counter argument that you are clearly making stuff up to pretend that potions are not as awful as they are? Please enlighten me, I would love to tell my Coil group, hey, by the way, if we use XXX potion in this fight, we can shave 30-45 seconds off this fight.

I've given you numbers. I've given you the scenarios to use them. You just refuse to accept them.

There's nothing I can do about that. You believe what you want to believe, and that's too bad for anyone else trying to convince you otherwise. No reason for me to bother any further.

[Vivejun]

yeah i make myself HQ x-pots just because i can and really 650 HP back isn't the best. i'd rather have a slightly longer cooldown on it with a slightly greater heal.

[Crevox]

Finally, you say something to agree with what everyone has been saying in this thread.

I've said from the beginning that people misjudge the worth of potions. However, it is exactly that: a misjudgment. Potions ARE effective, and ARE worth the time and money to get.

yeah i make myself HQ x-pots just because i can and really 650 HP back isn't the best. i'd rather have a slightly longer cooldown on it with a slightly greater heal

As soon as that 650 HP is the driving difference between life and death, the potion has done its job. As a tank, it's all about popping cooldowns and heals in accordance with emergency scenarios or tough parts of the fight.

Potions are no different. If you KNOW you're about to get hit by an attack that will kill you, or you KNOW that the healers are not going to be able to heal you because they are busy healing the group or low on mana... that potion will save you. It will let you live a little bit longer, and that could be all the time in the world, just enough to survive and move on in the fight to win.

[ToraFomalhaut]

And yet people invest time and money in gear AND food.

People invest money in anything that they can see as a tangible benefit to their character's ability to perform in a group scenario. They simply don't see potions as worth it.

And that's the point potions do not exhibit any clear benefit towards combat. So you can shave 5-10 seconds off of your fight? So you can claim to your friends "Whoa just pulled off a 2.5k fester crit!" So what?

If I go buy 5k worth of HQ bit food and spend a few weeks farming my ilevel70 / 90 gear and clear coil and clear content with no worries? I can tell you potions are the least of my concerns.

Now if I had top tier gear and was struggling to clear content without potions then yeah you can sure bet I'd be willing to invest time and money in the potion market.

[Crevox]

And that's the point potions do not exhibit any clear benefit towards combat. So you can shave 5-10 seconds off of your fight? So you can claim to your friends "Whoa just pulled off a 2.5k fester crit!" So what?

If I go buy 5k worth of HQ bit food and spend a few weeks farming my ilevel70 / 90 gear and clear coil and clear content with no worries? I can tell you potions are the least of my concerns.

And yet there are situations all the time in duty finder or elsewhere that groups can't kill Titan's Heart in time, or they die with the boss having a tiny bit of HP left. If anyone used potions, they would've won. Those are just a couple examples: in other scenarios, like Garuda, killing the sister slightly faster greatly eases the healing load on the healers, which could allow the tank to survive and move on.

STR/INT/DEX Potions grant DPS, just like gear. Your arguments can be applied exactly the same to both gear and food.

The problem here is that you're not necessarily arguing against potions: you're arguing that encounters are too easy and nothing needs high enough stats to warrant the purchase. However, again, food is the same, and not everyone is in your position where the game is "so easy" that none of it is needed. People want and need both gear and food. They could want and need potions too, they just misjudge them.

[ToraFomalhaut]

The problem here is that you're not necessarily arguing against potions: you're arguing that encounters are too easy and nothing needs high enough stats to warrant the purchase. However, again, food is the same, and not everyone is in your position where the game is "so easy" that none of it is needed. People want and need both gear and food. They could want and need potions too, they just misjudge them.

Yes that is exactly what we've been arguing. In the current game, there is no outstanding need for potions to clear content. As I outlined earlier about food, no it's not needed but because of the 'persist through death' buff food got it became a safe and cost effective investment that had little downside to the long term passive buff it applied.

If I were geared in all BIS, had eaten food, and danced to the scripted fight perfectly and still struggled to beat it. Then I could consider potions in their current format as a viable and needed option. However in the current game, there is no need for that additional edge to drive the market for potions thus leaving alchemist as a dud craft.

So without changing how encounters behave, potions as they are now are useless and the only way to make them viable is to buff the way they operate. If combat encounters became situations where even in the best gear you still needed a small edge to make it through the fight while allowing for margins of error, then potions in their current format would make sense.

[Mikara]

I've said from the beginning that people misjudge the worth of potions. However, it is exactly that: a misjudgment.

Time for me to compile a list of real uses for potions, anyone let me know if I'm missing anything.

1. A very minimal heal / MP restore that comes with a hefty cool down, in which you can't use option 2, 3, 4 and 5.
2. A sizable boost to DPS / healing potential for around 12 seconds. (Don't forget the 2-3 seconds I mentioned earlier where you can't do ANYTHING except for move after using a potion.) Locks you out from options 1, 3, 4 and 5.
3. A decent boost to HP and instant heal through an HQ VIT pot, the HP boost only lasts for 15 seconds. Locks you out of 1, 2, 4 and 5.
4. Remove a status effect that could get reapplied right after you remove the status effect. Locks you out of 1, 2, 3 and 5. HQ has no benefit except for lower cool down time.
5. Give yourself temporary elemental resistance, which who actually knows which attacks they affect or are useful against. Locks you out from options 1, 2, 3 and 4.
6. Apply a debuff to a target, will still consume potion even if the target is immune to the debuff. HQ has no benefit except for lower cool down time.

Outside of those I can't think of any uses for pots, and even most of the ones I have mentioned are still pretty lacking.

[Crevox]

Yes that is exactly what we've been arguing. In the current game, there is no outstanding need for potions to clear content. As I outlined earlier about food, no it's not needed but because of the 'persist through death' buff food got it became a safe and cost effective investment that had little downside to the long term passive buff it applied.

If I were geared in all BIS, had eaten food, and danced to the scripted fight perfectly and still struggled to beat it. Then I could consider potions in their current format as a viable and needed option. However in the current game, there is no need driving the market for potions leaving alchemist as a dud craft.


So without changing how encounters behave, potions as they are are useless and the only way to make them viable is to buff the way they operate. If combat encounters became situations where even in the best gear you still needed a small edge to make it through the fight then potions in their current format would make sense.

The majority of the player base does need that extra benefit to surpass content, and thus your point is moot.

1. A very minimal heal / MP restore that comes with a hefty cool down, in which you can't use option 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Not minimal. The heal will be the difference between life and death when used at the right time (like any survivability cooldown), and the MP restore will give you MP when you have none (thus changing you from doing nothing to being allowed to cast) or simply give you more MP to be greedy with powerful heals and spells. The MP restore also allows BLM to triple flare, and SMN to push their rotation harder (Ruin II's, contagion Miasma II, etc).

2. A sizable boost to DPS / healing potential for around 12 seconds. (Don't forget the 2-3 seconds I mentioned earlier where you can't do ANYTHING except for move after using a potion.) Locks you out from options 1, 3, 4 and 5.

It's 15 seconds duration on a potion. The "2-3" seconds is about 0.5 seconds, and it's off the GCD, so you can time it between skills/magic, just like any ability.

3. A decent boost to HP and instant heal through an HQ VIT pot, the HP boost only lasts for 15 seconds. Locks you out of 1, 2, 4 and 5.

An alternative to the heal from 1, yes. Slightly different use conditions, offering its own pros and cons.

4. Remove a status effect that could get reapplied right after you remove the status effect. Locks you out of 1, 2, 3 and 5. HQ has no benefit except for lower cool down time.

This is simply an extremely negative look on status cure potions. They aren't really needed in end game content anyways.

5. Give yourself temporary elemental resistance, which who actually knows which attacks they affect or are useful against. Locks you out from options 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Easy to tell. When proshell affects the damage, or any other magic resist buff (or Virus's Fever effect) you know its magical; and from there, it's generally very easy to tell the element. When I want to mitigate damage of X element, I use X elemental resist potion. Useful for saving your life from tumult when it would otherwise kill you due to healers not topping you off, or being under the effects of weakness (offering you ONE use scenario out of many).

6. Apply a debuff to a target, will still consume potion even if the target is immune to the debuff. HQ has no benefit except for lower cool down time.

Not hard to know what debuffs a monster is immune to. Warriors can use blind potions on demand to make mountain busters miss, or other critical attacks, since they have no native method of applying it. Poison potions are a straight up DPS increase. Sleep potions are just utility, giving any class an instant cast sleep.

Seems like you have a pretty good list. Not all of them go completely into the depth and options they provide, but it's a start.