Geomancer (CNJ Job) concept

[Giantbane]

Healing potency is different than magic potency is different than attack potency. Flare is a BLM attack with 260 potency, but it hits substantially harder than a 260 potency ability from a DPS. There would be *no* chance that, if the Cure spells were turned into something else, they would have their healing potency converted into magic potency on a 1-for-1 basis. Even if it were only temporary, the burst damage would be so insane it would put BRDs *and* BLMs to shame.

Flare is usually cast under the effect of Fire III which makes it hit substantially harder than a "normal" 260 potency attack, i don't think that's a good example. Either way, it wouldn't have to be 1:1, it just has to be stronger so it becomes a burst effect. They've already shown with all of the healing and damage potency formulas that they're not adverse to moderately complex equations for calculating damage from stats, so they could just make it work at whatever value seems balanced.

Even if it's only a temporary change, you've got to realize that the spell is still getting *completely and totally changed*. It doesn't matter if it happens permanently or temporarily, it's still turning a Cure spell into something that is nothing like a Cure spell, which is the problem. As soon as the devs start completely replacing abilities upon job changes, they've basically opened Pandora's box because now there's no real reason why they couldn't just completely change *every* job so that it's nothing like the base class

So what? If the ability is used on cooldown, such that 15s out of 3min Cure spells function differently, they're still functioning exactly the same as they did for the base class some ~92% of the time. Even if you cut that down to 15s out of every min it's still a normal cure spell 75% of the time.

Besides, what does that mean in the context of CNJ anyhow? CNJ as a DD is incredibly straight foward: chain cast spells and dots using mana with no additional resources, dependencies or buffs to consider. You can have them cast ANYTHING and it essentially functions the same since the only standard that CNJ has set forward as the base class is "cast spells". The only way you could make a GEO not function like a CNJ is if they all of a sudden turned Stone I & II into melee abilities.

... (and players would *totally* start demanding this be done to their job; there are already SMNs demanding that their DoTs be turned into spells that summon a primal for a single attack). You'd end up with jobs that have almost nothing in common with their class because aspects of their class don't fit with the job

These are absolutely not the same thing. Changing a DoT into a big primal summon is indeed a massive functional and graphical change. Cure is a direct healing spell, cast on that target and heals target. Modified as a DD spell, it's just cast on target and do damage to that target. It's really very similar in its usage, just that health goes down instead of up. Is it really *that* jarring? Hell, "Cure" has been used extensively as a DD spell against undead throughout the FF series. So there's precedent for using Cure spells as DD already. Since ARR doesn't do that sort of specific vulnerability on a per monster basis, the corrupted version gives you the ability to do a cure as dd spell that both fits in with the lore (lots of stuff about corrupted elements) and systems (spells work the same on all enemies) currently in ARR.

Also, if there were an ability that did such a thing, what would be the point of not just making it permanent? Temporarily allowing someone to access an entire group of spells based upon a short term buff doesn't make any real sense.

Why not? CNJ as DD is extremely simple. A GEO job would need some twists to spice it up. Having to swap out to a different spell set for short duration bursts is one way to do that. It gives the other elemental spells purpose during their "normal" rotation, and gives the heal spells purpose during the corrupted rotation. Adds a little skill because you have to make sure you're not casting cures after the effect wears off or you're just going to start healing yourself instead of damaging the enemy. It's a unique effect that would separate it from other casting jobs (which is important).

Although, really the main idea is just to give the GEO job the ability to cast the cure spells in their normal version as well as the corrupted version. This creates some continuity with the base class. If you replace them 100% of the time, then it creates a larger break with the base class conceptually.

A more likely scenario would be building up stacks similar to how WAR deals with Wrath but, at that point, you're dealing with a series of 5 spells that are going to largely do the same thing (Medica, Medica II, and Cure III are all AoEs; Cure and Cure II are STs); WARs have 3 Wrath exclusive abilities but they all do very different things. Since all 5 of the Cure spells do the same thing with minor differences (standard; bigger than normal; bigger than normal targeted AoE; standard PbAoE; weak PbAoE with bigger than normal HoT), it would take some significant stretching of credulity to explain how "corrupting" Cure II provides a completely different effect than Cure I without making the other redundant (Cure II could be a DoT while Cure I could be a straight damage, but, since you're not going to be spam casting them anyways, you would always use Cure II pretty much because it's going to have to be more damage to justify the delayed effect).

Personally I would just have it apply to the cure spells. Difference between I & II is just mana efficiency, which may or may not be a concern. It's not a big difference, but it's enough.

[Kitru]

The only way you could make a GEO not function like a CNJ is if they all of a sudden turned Stone I & II into melee abilities.

Which has been my point all along. Turning CNJ into a DPS basically requires rebuilding CNJ completely which is why it's not going to happen. For the same amount of effort, they could just design a new class entirely (and it would play better too).

These are absolutely not the same thing. Changing a DoT into a big primal summon is indeed a massive functional and graphical change. Cure is a direct healing spell, cast on that target and heals target. Modified as a DD spell, it's just cast on target and do damage to that target. It's really very similar in its usage, just that health goes down instead of up. Is it really *that* jarring?

Yes, it is. Attacks/debuffs are a separate category of ability from heals/buffs as are summons. Just because there are superficial similarities between the two doesn't mean that they're pretty much the same thing.

Cure is not simply "cast on that target that heals target". It is "cast on an ally and heal that ally", just like Fire is "cast on that enemy and target that enemy". All abilities in ARR have specific targets

Hell, "Cure" has been used extensively as a DD spell against undead throughout the FF series. So there's precedent for using Cure spells as DD already.

You could also target your own allies with offensive spells and use abilities that targeted both your allies and your enemies. Furthermore, Cure spells were a separate "element" which is why they damaged undead creatures. They were basically an element that everyone had as "absorb" by default and that certain enemies didn't have any resistance to at all.

Why not? CNJ as DD is extremely simple. A GEO job would need some twists to spice it up.

Nowhere was I suggesting that a CNJ DPS job be left as CNJ currently is. I was saying that the specific mechanic you're suggesting is basically pointless because you're just limiting half of your abilities such that they can only be used for short times during the use of a specific CD that you can predict the use of and will, effectively, turn into the only attacks you use for the duration since it *isn't* an interesting gameplay twist. It's an arbitrary separation of two completely different but still painfully simple attack strings. It would be somewhat interesting if said ability converted the attacks you already use into completely new abilities (e.g. turning Stone and Stone II into Water and Water II), but a short term buff that allows you to use other attacks at your disposal doesn't really add up to an interesting playstyle.

If you're going to give a job the ability to completely convert useless attacks into useful ones, it should be a passive aspect of that class. The only reason to have temporary conversion of abilities into new ones is if you're doing it to existing useful attacks with the intent of changing their use.

Personally I would just have it apply to the cure spells. Difference between I & II is just mana efficiency, which may or may not be a concern.

If it applied to Cure, Cure II, and Cure III, you'd basically be turning Cure into a redundant spell. You'd use Cure III for AoE and Cure II for ST. DPS are designed to be resource neutral by design (the resource management subgame is intended to not be a major aspect of their playstyle, which is why attacks are never really measured on their cost efficiency but rather their temporal efficiency; cost efficiency is only really a factor when the temporal efficiency of the abilities is so close that it can't be a deciding factor) so the fact that Cure costs less than Cure II basically means nothing.

I say this also because you would never be able to turn CNJ into a DPS job without fixing their resource consumption. Shroud just wouldn't cut it.

[Giantbane]

Which has been my point all along. Turning CNJ into a DPS basically requires rebuilding CNJ completely which is why it's not going to happen. For the same amount of effort, they could just design a new class entirely (and it would play better too).

Solo content as a healer or tank is kind of slow. It's nice to have the option to play as a DD subjob when leveling or running around solo (unless you're doing something job specific so you have to play the healer or tank). This is especially true for CNJ because their resource management sucks when trying to kill things. So of all the classes that could really use another job, even just for QoL purposes, it's CNJ. Hopefully one that would give them much better resource management in exchange for an increased ability to kill.

And CNJ doesn't need *that* much. Look at BLM. You basically just spam a few abilities for the most part along with the waxing/waning of mana (frost/fire) and a couple procs you have to worry about. It's still a fun class (to me) even though it's pretty simple.

And I'm not suggesting that this would be the ONLY aspect that separates GEO from CNJ. It's simply a method of making the cure spells useful to the GEO class in a way that allows for some continuity between the base class and the Job. There would need to be more to GEOs elemental rotation to make it interesting. There are a lot of suggestions in this thread to that effect.

Yes, it is. Attacks/debuffs are a separate category of ability from heals/buffs as are summons. Just because there are superficial similarities between the two doesn't mean that they're pretty much the same thing.

Cure is not simply "cast on that target that heals target". It is "cast on an ally and heal that ally", just like Fire is "cast on that enemy and target that enemy". All abilities in ARR have specific targets

No, the reason dot -> primal is a pretty jarring transition is because it's so different on a lore level. Going from casting a disease to summoning some entirely unrelated primal to maybe or maybe not apply that effect (or do something else entirely) is a pretty big conceptual break.

Changing a heal spell to a corrupted version makes a whole lot of sense in concept and lore, which makes the transition from one to the other also make a whole lot more sense.

The rest of it I don't think is a big concern. If the idea were implemented as stated, I think it would still *feel* like you're playing a job based on CNJ. Which is the primary concern about making this sort of change, right?

You could also target your own allies with offensive spells and use abilities that targeted both your allies and your enemies. Furthermore, Cure spells were a separate "element" which is why they damaged undead creatures. They were basically an element that everyone had as "absorb" by default and that certain enemies didn't have any resistance to at all.

And BRD played a harp and didn't really have the ability to do much other than sing songs.

I'm merely establishing that heal spells already have a lot of precedent to do double duty as heals and damage in certain situations. And, as you've mentioned, there's some precedent for using the same spell to cast on your allies or enemies. This takes that concept and adapts it to ARR.

Nowhere was I suggesting that a CNJ DPS job be left as CNJ currently is. I was saying that the specific mechanic you're suggesting is basically pointless because you're just limiting half of your abilities such that they can only be used for short times during the use of a specific CD that you can predict the use of and will, effectively, turn into the only attacks you use for the duration since it *isn't* an interesting gameplay twist. It's an arbitrary separation of two completely different but still painfully simple attack strings. It would be somewhat interesting if said ability converted the attacks you already use into completely new abilities (e.g. turning Stone and Stone II into Water and Water II), but a short term buff that allows you to use other attacks at your disposal doesn't really add up to an interesting playstyle.

Interesting compared to most other classes temporary damage buffs? yes.

Raging Strikes/Berserk/Fight or Flight/etc:
--Hit button to do more damage for X seconds, then go back to doing your normal rotation. Maybe there's a detrimental effect you have to worry about (take more damage, pacification, etc).

vs.

Corrupted state
--Hit button to do more damage for X seconds, but you have to cast different spells to get the benefit.

It's not an AMAZING skill idea, it's just a small twist on the temporary damage buff concept.

If you're going to give a job the ability to completely convert useless attacks into useful ones, it should be a passive aspect of that class. The only reason to have temporary conversion of abilities into new ones is if you're doing it to existing useful attacks with the intent of changing their use.

Healing abilities are still useful to a DPS job even if they're relatively weak. I've been in instances where I was tanking a boss, the healer dies and the SMN or BLM is able to spam physick on me to keep me alive well enough for the rest of us to finish a boss.

This suggestion keeps the ability of the base spells to be used in a support role, but allows some of them to perform double duty so that the GEO is getting more out of the base CNJ class aside from stone and aero to support its primary function of DPS.

If it applied to Cure, Cure II, and Cure III, you'd basically be turning Cure into a redundant spell. You'd use Cure III for AoE and Cure II for ST. DPS are designed to be resource neutral by design (the resource management subgame is intended to not be a major aspect of their playstyle, which is why attacks are never really measured on their cost efficiency but rather their temporal efficiency; cost efficiency is only really a factor when the temporal efficiency of the abilities is so close that it can't be a deciding factor) so the fact that Cure costs less than Cure II basically means nothing.

Not necessarily. A SMN has to worry about their mana pool in long fights. They may need to limit their use of Ruin II or start using drain instead of fester in these cases. Depending on how GEO was set up to handle mana management, they could still find themselves in situations where they can also get into mana troubles if they're not careful about how they cast. Or they may need to conserve a little in particularly long fights. At which point they need to swap to Cure instead of Cure II for their corrupted state.

Provides enough justification to leave Cure in as is in my opinion.

They could also increase the mana costs of those spells under the Corruption effect to a point where Cure II prohibitively expensive to be spammed outside of freecure procs.

I say this also because you would never be able to turn CNJ into a DPS job without fixing their resource consumption. Shroud just wouldn't cut it.

A CNJ DPS job would obviously need a better way to manage their resource consumption. Some ideas have already been suggested in this thread.

[KaelinAstraea]

I remember them saying at one point that all classes would eventually have two jobs like Arcanist.

So I guess all those classes that everyone says can't get a second job, will eventually anyway. We'll just have to see how they implem ent it and what it changes if anything.