Geomancer (CNJ Job) concept

[Exstal]

There is no agree to disagree. You're wrong and that's it. SMN and myself both using Summon I. What comes out might be a different version of summon, but the skill is the same.

[Viviza]

different version of summon

but the skill is the same.

different

same.

Right. Whatever.

[Kitru]

Right. Whatever.

Because context doesn't mean a thing, right? What you have misquoted applies just as well to the WAR combo attacks because they're different (WAR versions generate Wrath; MRD don't) but they're still basically the same (because nothing else changes) as it does to any one of a number of minute different class/job differences.

You're ignoring the context and just getting hung up on specific words because you're incapable of separating what a summon spell *summons* and what a summon spell *is*. A summon spell (doesn't matter if it's Summon, Summon II, or Summon III) summons a pet. Summon(ACN), Summon(SCH), and Summon(SMN) are all *still* summon spells the only difference between which is the entity summoned. It's akin to if the devs changed the DoT on Fracture into an armor debuff: it's still fundamentally an *attack* even if the effect is different.

This is *completely* different from changing a healing spell into an attack spell. That is changing the fundamental nature of the attack, not modifying the effect, which is what we've been saying all along. The devs have nowhere shown that they can or will change the fundamental nature of an attack due to a job change; if they wanted/could, you can be pretty sure that SCH probably would have seen some of those changes given the dearth of heals they have compared to WHM, especially since it would have allowed them to restrict combat rezzing to SCH instead of providing it to SMN as well, which is a remarkably unique functionality to provide to a non-healer (since no one else really has real cross role functionality otherwise).

[Giantbane]

It's not a question of "temporary or permanent". It's the fact that it would require *completely changing the spell*.

I'll agree that changing all cure spells into attack spells when equipping a Job stone is a pretty big fundamental change that they may be adverse to. It creates too much of a break between the class and Job in terms of what skills do what, so there's not a natural transition from one to the other.

A temporary effect is more subtle since it's not an all the time thing. Cure spells all have very high potency when compared to similar DD spells. Providing GEO with a 15s/3min cooldown (or something of that nature) that allowed them to cast corrupted versions of their cure spells would be a big boost to their damage for that duration. However, because the majority of the time those cure spells function as normal, then you're not really fundamentally changing the spell as a whole. It's just a temporary modification that's available to the GEO job. It's a more palatable and natural change from class -> job.

However, they could also add some interesting effects to the cure spells as part of the GEO job. Perhaps a GEO might receive a buff to their damage or something for 20s or so after a cure spell. Setting up the normal rotation to be throwing out a cure spell (any will do) every 20s and then continuing with damage as normal. Keeps the function of the spell the same while giving it some purpose as part of the GEO rotation.

[Kitru]

Cure spells all have very high potency when compared to similar DD spells.

Healing potency is different than magic potency is different than attack potency. Flare is a BLM attack with 260 potency, but it hits substantially harder than a 260 potency ability from a DPS. There would be *no* chance that, if the Cure spells were turned into something else, they would have their healing potency converted into magic potency on a 1-for-1 basis. Even if it were only temporary, the burst damage would be so insane it would put BRDs *and* BLMs to shame.

A temporary effect is more subtle since it's not an all the time thing.

Even if it's only a temporary change, you've got to realize that the spell is still getting *completely and totally changed*. It doesn't matter if it happens permanently or temporarily, it's still turning a Cure spell into something that is nothing like a Cure spell, which is the problem. As soon as the devs start completely replacing abilities upon job changes, they've basically opened Pandora's box because now there's no real reason why they couldn't just completely change *every* job so that it's nothing like the base class (and players would *totally* start demanding this be done to their job; there are already SMNs demanding that their DoTs be turned into spells that summon a primal for a single attack). You'd end up with jobs that have almost nothing in common with their class because aspects of their class don't fit with the job (or take up space that could be used for necessary functionality, like turning GLA in a DPS job by replacing most of their CD suite with new attacks so that they don't have a single combo rotation).

Also, if there were an ability that did such a thing, what would be the point of not just making it permanent? Temporarily allowing someone to access an entire group of spells based upon a short term buff doesn't make any real sense. A more likely scenario would be building up stacks similar to how WAR deals with Wrath but, at that point, you're dealing with a series of 5 spells that are going to largely do the same thing (Medica, Medica II, and Cure III are all AoEs; Cure and Cure II are STs); WARs have 3 Wrath exclusive abilities but they all do very different things. Since all 5 of the Cure spells do the same thing with minor differences (standard; bigger than normal; bigger than normal targeted AoE; standard PbAoE; weak PbAoE with bigger than normal HoT), it would take some significant stretching of credulity to explain how "corrupting" Cure II provides a completely different effect than Cure I without making the other redundant (Cure II could be a DoT while Cure I could be a straight damage, but, since you're not going to be spam casting them anyways, you would always use Cure II pretty much because it's going to have to be more damage to justify the delayed effect).

[Giantbane]

Healing potency is different than magic potency is different than attack potency. Flare is a BLM attack with 260 potency, but it hits substantially harder than a 260 potency ability from a DPS. There would be *no* chance that, if the Cure spells were turned into something else, they would have their healing potency converted into magic potency on a 1-for-1 basis. Even if it were only temporary, the burst damage would be so insane it would put BRDs *and* BLMs to shame.

Flare is usually cast under the effect of Fire III which makes it hit substantially harder than a "normal" 260 potency attack, i don't think that's a good example. Either way, it wouldn't have to be 1:1, it just has to be stronger so it becomes a burst effect. They've already shown with all of the healing and damage potency formulas that they're not adverse to moderately complex equations for calculating damage from stats, so they could just make it work at whatever value seems balanced.

Even if it's only a temporary change, you've got to realize that the spell is still getting *completely and totally changed*. It doesn't matter if it happens permanently or temporarily, it's still turning a Cure spell into something that is nothing like a Cure spell, which is the problem. As soon as the devs start completely replacing abilities upon job changes, they've basically opened Pandora's box because now there's no real reason why they couldn't just completely change *every* job so that it's nothing like the base class

So what? If the ability is used on cooldown, such that 15s out of 3min Cure spells function differently, they're still functioning exactly the same as they did for the base class some ~92% of the time. Even if you cut that down to 15s out of every min it's still a normal cure spell 75% of the time.

Besides, what does that mean in the context of CNJ anyhow? CNJ as a DD is incredibly straight foward: chain cast spells and dots using mana with no additional resources, dependencies or buffs to consider. You can have them cast ANYTHING and it essentially functions the same since the only standard that CNJ has set forward as the base class is "cast spells". The only way you could make a GEO not function like a CNJ is if they all of a sudden turned Stone I & II into melee abilities.

... (and players would *totally* start demanding this be done to their job; there are already SMNs demanding that their DoTs be turned into spells that summon a primal for a single attack). You'd end up with jobs that have almost nothing in common with their class because aspects of their class don't fit with the job

These are absolutely not the same thing. Changing a DoT into a big primal summon is indeed a massive functional and graphical change. Cure is a direct healing spell, cast on that target and heals target. Modified as a DD spell, it's just cast on target and do damage to that target. It's really very similar in its usage, just that health goes down instead of up. Is it really *that* jarring? Hell, "Cure" has been used extensively as a DD spell against undead throughout the FF series. So there's precedent for using Cure spells as DD already. Since ARR doesn't do that sort of specific vulnerability on a per monster basis, the corrupted version gives you the ability to do a cure as dd spell that both fits in with the lore (lots of stuff about corrupted elements) and systems (spells work the same on all enemies) currently in ARR.

Also, if there were an ability that did such a thing, what would be the point of not just making it permanent? Temporarily allowing someone to access an entire group of spells based upon a short term buff doesn't make any real sense.

Why not? CNJ as DD is extremely simple. A GEO job would need some twists to spice it up. Having to swap out to a different spell set for short duration bursts is one way to do that. It gives the other elemental spells purpose during their "normal" rotation, and gives the heal spells purpose during the corrupted rotation. Adds a little skill because you have to make sure you're not casting cures after the effect wears off or you're just going to start healing yourself instead of damaging the enemy. It's a unique effect that would separate it from other casting jobs (which is important).

Although, really the main idea is just to give the GEO job the ability to cast the cure spells in their normal version as well as the corrupted version. This creates some continuity with the base class. If you replace them 100% of the time, then it creates a larger break with the base class conceptually.

A more likely scenario would be building up stacks similar to how WAR deals with Wrath but, at that point, you're dealing with a series of 5 spells that are going to largely do the same thing (Medica, Medica II, and Cure III are all AoEs; Cure and Cure II are STs); WARs have 3 Wrath exclusive abilities but they all do very different things. Since all 5 of the Cure spells do the same thing with minor differences (standard; bigger than normal; bigger than normal targeted AoE; standard PbAoE; weak PbAoE with bigger than normal HoT), it would take some significant stretching of credulity to explain how "corrupting" Cure II provides a completely different effect than Cure I without making the other redundant (Cure II could be a DoT while Cure I could be a straight damage, but, since you're not going to be spam casting them anyways, you would always use Cure II pretty much because it's going to have to be more damage to justify the delayed effect).

Personally I would just have it apply to the cure spells. Difference between I & II is just mana efficiency, which may or may not be a concern. It's not a big difference, but it's enough.

[Kitru]

The only way you could make a GEO not function like a CNJ is if they all of a sudden turned Stone I & II into melee abilities.

Which has been my point all along. Turning CNJ into a DPS basically requires rebuilding CNJ completely which is why it's not going to happen. For the same amount of effort, they could just design a new class entirely (and it would play better too).

These are absolutely not the same thing. Changing a DoT into a big primal summon is indeed a massive functional and graphical change. Cure is a direct healing spell, cast on that target and heals target. Modified as a DD spell, it's just cast on target and do damage to that target. It's really very similar in its usage, just that health goes down instead of up. Is it really *that* jarring?

Yes, it is. Attacks/debuffs are a separate category of ability from heals/buffs as are summons. Just because there are superficial similarities between the two doesn't mean that they're pretty much the same thing.

Cure is not simply "cast on that target that heals target". It is "cast on an ally and heal that ally", just like Fire is "cast on that enemy and target that enemy". All abilities in ARR have specific targets

Hell, "Cure" has been used extensively as a DD spell against undead throughout the FF series. So there's precedent for using Cure spells as DD already.

You could also target your own allies with offensive spells and use abilities that targeted both your allies and your enemies. Furthermore, Cure spells were a separate "element" which is why they damaged undead creatures. They were basically an element that everyone had as "absorb" by default and that certain enemies didn't have any resistance to at all.

Why not? CNJ as DD is extremely simple. A GEO job would need some twists to spice it up.

Nowhere was I suggesting that a CNJ DPS job be left as CNJ currently is. I was saying that the specific mechanic you're suggesting is basically pointless because you're just limiting half of your abilities such that they can only be used for short times during the use of a specific CD that you can predict the use of and will, effectively, turn into the only attacks you use for the duration since it *isn't* an interesting gameplay twist. It's an arbitrary separation of two completely different but still painfully simple attack strings. It would be somewhat interesting if said ability converted the attacks you already use into completely new abilities (e.g. turning Stone and Stone II into Water and Water II), but a short term buff that allows you to use other attacks at your disposal doesn't really add up to an interesting playstyle.

If you're going to give a job the ability to completely convert useless attacks into useful ones, it should be a passive aspect of that class. The only reason to have temporary conversion of abilities into new ones is if you're doing it to existing useful attacks with the intent of changing their use.

Personally I would just have it apply to the cure spells. Difference between I & II is just mana efficiency, which may or may not be a concern.

If it applied to Cure, Cure II, and Cure III, you'd basically be turning Cure into a redundant spell. You'd use Cure III for AoE and Cure II for ST. DPS are designed to be resource neutral by design (the resource management subgame is intended to not be a major aspect of their playstyle, which is why attacks are never really measured on their cost efficiency but rather their temporal efficiency; cost efficiency is only really a factor when the temporal efficiency of the abilities is so close that it can't be a deciding factor) so the fact that Cure costs less than Cure II basically means nothing.

I say this also because you would never be able to turn CNJ into a DPS job without fixing their resource consumption. Shroud just wouldn't cut it.