Geomancer (CNJ Job) concept

[Viviza]

You consider Garuda and Eos the same spell because they're both summons? They serve completely different roles.

[Exstal]

You consider Garuda and Eos the same spell because they're both summons? They serve completely different roles.

They are the same spell.　It would almost no effort to give SMN Eos and SCH Garuda. As a matter of fact, the skill is even called the same, "Summon I".

Turning CNJ into DPS would require removing; Cure, Cure II, Cure III, Medica, Medica II and all associated traits and replacing them with DPS skills.

Tell me, which is easier?

[Kitru]

You consider Garuda and Eos the same spell because they're both summons? They serve completely different roles.

No, Garuda and Eos are completely separate summons. The *spell* that summons them, Summon I, is the same spell just with a single tweaked effect (e.g. Eos or Garuda). It still summons something; the only thing that changes is what it summons. It doesn't turn a spell that summons a pet into an instant AoE; Summon I does the same fundamental thing whether it's cast by a ACN, a SMN, or a SCH: it summons a pet.

[VoltaAsura]

This is a great idea, but I dislike it for one reason and one alone.

If Geomancer was to stem from the Conj class, it would yield a cane or wand. No thank you.

[Viviza]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't see how summoning something different is not a different spell.

That would be like saying all attack spells as the same spell because they are attack spells with tweaked effects. (edit: as long as they have the same name? I don't see why the name matters at all)

[Exstal]

There is no agree to disagree. You're wrong and that's it. SMN and myself both using Summon I. What comes out might be a different version of summon, but the skill is the same.

[Viviza]

different version of summon

but the skill is the same.

different

same.

Right. Whatever.

[Kitru]

Right. Whatever.

Because context doesn't mean a thing, right? What you have misquoted applies just as well to the WAR combo attacks because they're different (WAR versions generate Wrath; MRD don't) but they're still basically the same (because nothing else changes) as it does to any one of a number of minute different class/job differences.

You're ignoring the context and just getting hung up on specific words because you're incapable of separating what a summon spell *summons* and what a summon spell *is*. A summon spell (doesn't matter if it's Summon, Summon II, or Summon III) summons a pet. Summon(ACN), Summon(SCH), and Summon(SMN) are all *still* summon spells the only difference between which is the entity summoned. It's akin to if the devs changed the DoT on Fracture into an armor debuff: it's still fundamentally an *attack* even if the effect is different.

This is *completely* different from changing a healing spell into an attack spell. That is changing the fundamental nature of the attack, not modifying the effect, which is what we've been saying all along. The devs have nowhere shown that they can or will change the fundamental nature of an attack due to a job change; if they wanted/could, you can be pretty sure that SCH probably would have seen some of those changes given the dearth of heals they have compared to WHM, especially since it would have allowed them to restrict combat rezzing to SCH instead of providing it to SMN as well, which is a remarkably unique functionality to provide to a non-healer (since no one else really has real cross role functionality otherwise).

[Giantbane]

It's not a question of "temporary or permanent". It's the fact that it would require *completely changing the spell*.

I'll agree that changing all cure spells into attack spells when equipping a Job stone is a pretty big fundamental change that they may be adverse to. It creates too much of a break between the class and Job in terms of what skills do what, so there's not a natural transition from one to the other.

A temporary effect is more subtle since it's not an all the time thing. Cure spells all have very high potency when compared to similar DD spells. Providing GEO with a 15s/3min cooldown (or something of that nature) that allowed them to cast corrupted versions of their cure spells would be a big boost to their damage for that duration. However, because the majority of the time those cure spells function as normal, then you're not really fundamentally changing the spell as a whole. It's just a temporary modification that's available to the GEO job. It's a more palatable and natural change from class -> job.

However, they could also add some interesting effects to the cure spells as part of the GEO job. Perhaps a GEO might receive a buff to their damage or something for 20s or so after a cure spell. Setting up the normal rotation to be throwing out a cure spell (any will do) every 20s and then continuing with damage as normal. Keeps the function of the spell the same while giving it some purpose as part of the GEO rotation.

[Kitru]

Cure spells all have very high potency when compared to similar DD spells.

Healing potency is different than magic potency is different than attack potency. Flare is a BLM attack with 260 potency, but it hits substantially harder than a 260 potency ability from a DPS. There would be *no* chance that, if the Cure spells were turned into something else, they would have their healing potency converted into magic potency on a 1-for-1 basis. Even if it were only temporary, the burst damage would be so insane it would put BRDs *and* BLMs to shame.

A temporary effect is more subtle since it's not an all the time thing.

Even if it's only a temporary change, you've got to realize that the spell is still getting *completely and totally changed*. It doesn't matter if it happens permanently or temporarily, it's still turning a Cure spell into something that is nothing like a Cure spell, which is the problem. As soon as the devs start completely replacing abilities upon job changes, they've basically opened Pandora's box because now there's no real reason why they couldn't just completely change *every* job so that it's nothing like the base class (and players would *totally* start demanding this be done to their job; there are already SMNs demanding that their DoTs be turned into spells that summon a primal for a single attack). You'd end up with jobs that have almost nothing in common with their class because aspects of their class don't fit with the job (or take up space that could be used for necessary functionality, like turning GLA in a DPS job by replacing most of their CD suite with new attacks so that they don't have a single combo rotation).

Also, if there were an ability that did such a thing, what would be the point of not just making it permanent? Temporarily allowing someone to access an entire group of spells based upon a short term buff doesn't make any real sense. A more likely scenario would be building up stacks similar to how WAR deals with Wrath but, at that point, you're dealing with a series of 5 spells that are going to largely do the same thing (Medica, Medica II, and Cure III are all AoEs; Cure and Cure II are STs); WARs have 3 Wrath exclusive abilities but they all do very different things. Since all 5 of the Cure spells do the same thing with minor differences (standard; bigger than normal; bigger than normal targeted AoE; standard PbAoE; weak PbAoE with bigger than normal HoT), it would take some significant stretching of credulity to explain how "corrupting" Cure II provides a completely different effect than Cure I without making the other redundant (Cure II could be a DoT while Cure I could be a straight damage, but, since you're not going to be spam casting them anyways, you would always use Cure II pretty much because it's going to have to be more damage to justify the delayed effect).